"This is my playstyle" is a poor argument for being bad.

[RiceisNice]

Is that a literal quote from the player or was it an assumption? I don't and can't discuss every example from the df, no one can.

But the "Gitgud" thing just isn't something I endorse, even if my own curcumstances were different.

I've had my fair share of people who refuse to pull their own weight for whatever reason (or otherwise intentionally fail at their job), but I've also seen a fair amount of people that go "well I don't want to put too much effort, they're dying and it's easy".

To rebute that; it's supposed to be a game. Nothing in this should be that mentally taxing (excluding A3S savage, but this was expert roulette and everyone was at least law+ gear) that you can't be bothered to incorporate it into your playstyle. It doesn't even just apply to games (but it's certainly the lowest common denominator imo if you can't even be bothered to put effort into that) but life in general; you don't want Jimmy slacking off and his co-workers doing all the work, if not more to compensate.

A pletoria of people exist, including the ones mentioned in the last few posts (and those especially special ones that queue as a group for CT just to mess with the other two alliances). Whether or not you want to put up with it (and if you can do anything about it outside of GM influence) is another thing. In regards to these people, it's not even a matter of "git gud", it's a "stop sandbagging" because for all intents and purposes, they can play better but willingly choose not to (versus the common context of "git gud" is literally to "get over it", especially if it's in context of job changes).

Just stop taking what we say to the extreme end and hopefully you can see the perspective on this. We're not even iffed at people playing that aren't playing "to our standards" (unless again, you want to take that to the logical extreme where our standards is "giving a shite about the dungeon",) but having the courtsey of doing whats expected of their job and following the fundamentals.

And just to repeat what I've said before.

I think you missed the point if you were taking any of that post as an actual encounter. The whole spark of this thread is that people do not care anymore about the difference and want said players to leave. Have i seen this thread before? Yes. Have i seen it used to excuse jerk behavior before? Yes. I may have even seen this myself during my time with the game. But options to have the commity police itself on skilled party play throughout the game are not going to be attractive or facilitate new players. All people can do is offer the help when and if they can. And if they don't play to your standards? Don't return the favor, that's not something to be proud of.

To be honest, your post is in a completely different context of the topic/discussion. The general census is that "you should not be playing deliberately bad" and your post is "you shouldn't expect the absolute best out of people". You're throwing a wet vegetable into a hot fryer rather than a pot of boiling water.

It's not about subperforming because they aren't good at the job, it's those who can do better but willing choose not to out of spite or laziness (in a game setting). This means people who do DK>TS>SP combos as a MNK (and drop greased lightning somehow) and still do less than the tank on average, not AoE on trash (both of these in perspective of the latter), or ice mages (in the case of the former)

[AnaviAnael]

I've had my fair share of people who refuse to pull their own weight for whatever reason (or otherwise intentionally fail at their job), but I've also seen a fair amount of people that go "well I don't want to put too much effort, they're dying and it's easy".

I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

[RiceisNice]

I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

Not everything is black and white when it comes to a reasoning to why they aren't doing well. But in that context, they're willingly going into a dungeon knowing that can't perform well without a mouse (to the point that the party is dying), let alone still try to do other tasks like dps.

[Pells]

I'll add another to this: hardware malfunctions. One time in fractal, we had a scholar who was extremely slow on heals, and when DPSing only used Broil. We wiped once at the second boss, and another time at the last boss because he didn't use Leeches on the bombs. We mentioned, "hey man, you gotta remember to get the bombs off," to which he replied, "Yeah, my mouse isn't working well, so I'm having a hard time targeting people." When asked why he'd flag for an expert when his mouse wasn't working, "I'm not waiting around to start gearing up."

If he's using a mouse, then he has a keyboard. Targeting other players (in a four man dungeon) is keybound to F2, F3, and F4 by default. Broken mouse button doesn't explain this.

[Skivvy]

If he's using a mouse, then he has a keyboard. Targeting other players (in a four man dungeon) is keybound to F2, F3, and F4 by default. Broken mouse button doesn't explain this.

Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

[RiceisNice]

Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

But the matter of fact is, if you know that you're going to be playing inefficiently and it gets to the point that it's detrimental to the party (in this case, the healer is letting people die and causing wipes) that's when it becomes a problem. You wouldn't want me tanking with only a mouse because my keyboard is busted (and nevermind the fact that I queued into a roulette knowing that my keyboard is busted) would you? It's perfectly possible to do so with double-click movement and clicking all my skills, doesn't nessescarly mean it's efficent or I'll do a good job of it, and it'll certainly cause problems if it turns out I can't tank with just a mouse.

[Skivvy]

But the matter of fact is, if you know that you're going to be playing inefficiently and it gets to the point that it's detrimental to the party (in this case, the healer is letting people die and causing wipes) that's when it becomes a problem. You wouldn't want me tanking with only a mouse because my keyboard is busted (and nevermind the fact that I queued into a roulette knowing that my keyboard is busted) would you? It's perfectly possible to do so with double-click movement and clicking all my skills, doesn't nessescarly mean it's efficent or I'll do a good job of it, and it'll certainly cause problems if it turns out I can't tank with just a mouse.

haha, yeah. I forgot the last bit where he had intentionally queued up knowing his mouse was busted. That is a bit of a jackass move :X

[Ashkendor]

Maybe he uses mouse-over healing. Getting tired of people always coming back with an excuse of why something can't be a valid excuse. Not everyone plays this game in the exact same manner as you.

Queueing for a dungeon with a malfunctioning mouse makes even less sense in that case.