Deliverance rant

[SpookyGhost]

You do wait until after unchained is over to switch to deliverance right?

There's no real sense in waiting I think, I just use Unchained to boost the damage/enmity of my initial OPs while I start rolling offensive CDs + Bloodbath and then go into Deliverance. If Unchained isn't available I eat the penalty, but it also lets me sit on my 5 Abandon stacks for a bit for the crit bonus. I suppose I would wait a bit longer on Unchained if my healer didn't feel comfortable with me swapping that early, but Defiance doesn't really do anything if my healer isn't healing me and the healer I run with is usually too busy DPSing to be doing that. :P

[Bebekurenai]

Why do you as Whitemage stance dance with Cleric's Stance? Surely it'd be better if you just kept it off so your healing potency is always at max. On bosses, sure, but on trash?

Well, this is not about stance dancing clearly, actually the 2 remarkable warriors (yes I counted them) were stance dancing and popping cds and they were just divine; it's about those who don't dance and remain on Deliverance as a way of living. I dance too on whm if I see it fit, which I don't when I got those bad warriors. And it's not a moaning about me not being able to cleric, it's about how obvious it is that they are in the wrong stance when hate is all over the place and not only the super-war is near death but also the co-tanking dps, and they still feel so OP that they never change.

I can deal with not popping cds, lazy if you ask me but I can deal with it, but it's a continous suffering when its a Deliverance fanboy.

[Eisengrim]

...

Yeah, I know. It just felt right to use the cleric's stance thing as a point that shows that a warrior changing stances isn't a reason for you to want to hit leave as soon as you see them do it, since a lot of WHMs do the same thing successfully when they know when to properly use Cleric's. It's the same thing with warriors and I do hope you get more experienced warriors like those two, that actually know what they're doing and when they should and shouldn't use deliverance. They are out there... Somwhere. o-o

[Freyyy]

You can blame the current meta where several people new to tanking in this game worry about being a dps more...then actually tanking. This whole idea of tanks needing to max out thier dps came from Savage raiding. Where dps is necessary from all classes dps/healer/tank to clear that content. Newer tanks look at that, and try to mimic it, but also forgot about the basic fundamentals of tanking...holding aggro, staying alive, and positioning.

TBH I much preferred the time when aggressive tanking was not required and was kind of a niche. Aggressive tanking existed since the SCoB days as far as I can tell from my own raiding experience as a tank, using i70 crafted accessories then the Ruby i90 set when it came out (and the i110 one in FCoB when they came out). High tank DPS was not required at all to meet the DPS checks and most tanks were using full VIT gear and sitting in tanking stance, with only some people going with STR/hybrid builds and stance dancing, generally people who wanted to play at the absolutely best optimal way possible. I loved when back in 2.5x while waiting for the expac, I joined T10-11 farm parties in PF and people running parsers were amazed at me sustaining over 420-450 DPS while tanking T11 out of Defiance and no healer complaints, while most tanks were struggling to do more than 240 DPS. That's how niche it was. Now, a tank doing high DPS in raid content is, on top of being a common thing, actually required. And then baddies trying to mimic the good raiding tanks are being destroyed by trash mobs. Sad.

[ValkyrieL]

Don't generalize cuz one stupid warrior can't properly use deliverance or tank in general...

the general idea...start on defiance...build 3 stacks pop <cd for extra stack/zerk/bloodbath, switch to deliverance decimate 2x OP spam will destroy trash packs like nothing.

[Bebekurenai]

Don't generalize cuz one stupid warrior can't properly use deliverance or tank in general...

the general idea...start on defiance...build 3 stacks pop <cd for extra stack/zerk/bloodbath, switch to deliverance decimate 2x OP spam will destroy trash packs like nothing.

Oh but I have to generalize, that guy from the Library was just the start, but certainly not the last one. Gosh I wouldn't have this problem and my story would have gone into the "Tales of the Duty Finder" thread instead hehe. I have to generalize because my ratio of good (or pleasant) warriors is 2 against at least a hundred. And this is a very sad ratio, almost depressing!

I thank you guys though, you made me cheer up, I was getting upset :/

[Mendalas]

There's no real sense in waiting I think, I just use Unchained to boost the damage/enmity of my initial OPs while I start rolling offensive CDs + Bloodbath and then go into Deliverance. If Unchained isn't available I eat the penalty, but it also lets me sit on my 5 Abandon stacks for a bit for the crit bonus. I suppose I would wait a bit longer on Unchained if my healer didn't feel comfortable with me swapping that early, but Defiance doesn't really do anything if my healer isn't healing me and the healer I run with is usually too busy DPSing to be doing that. :P

Unchained nullifies the damage penalty of defiance. So you are essentially doing damage as if you didn't have defiance on. The only thing you would miss is the crit bonus from abandon stacks and a little bit more potency on deliverance abilities as compared to defiance abilities while benefiting from your tank stance healing/health bonus. But I would say using unchained for only 5 seconds of the 20 is not worth blowing your 5 stacks for. Save it for an extra decimate if you are gonna switch to deliverance that soon anyways. Just my opinion though and maybe other warrior mains can chime in on that (healer main here).

[SpookyGhost]

Just my opinion though and maybe other warrior mains can chime in on that (healer main here).

The reason (imo) it's worth using Unchained in the first place is that for 2-3 OPs you'll suffer the Defiance penalty, which is a 20% damage reduction on everything you're hitting with those OPs. I assume that outweighs a single Decimate, but I'm not entirely sure. While Unchained does nullify the penalty, if I'm not getting anything out of being in Defiance past the point where I've gotten up my buffs then I figure I might as well switch to Deliverance for the 5% bonus damage.

[Mendalas]

The reason (imo) it's worth using Unchained in the first place is that for 2-3 OPs you'll suffer the Defiance penalty, which is a 20% damage reduction on everything you're hitting with those OPs. I assume that outweighs a single Decimate, but I'm not entirely sure. While Unchained does nullify the penalty, if I'm not getting anything out of being in Defiance past the point where I've gotten up my buffs then I figure I might as well switch to Deliverance for the 5% bonus damage.

You are probably right when comparing it with just doing more damage. I am kinda OCD though with letting such an awesome ability as unchained get wasted haha. I usually only use unchained when pulling a boss and when that is the case, I wait out the full duration and then switch to deliverance right as its wearing off. Sacrificing a little bit of damage so that I can gain massive enmity and be a bit more tanky for longer is worth it in a random pug dungeon. Plus I use the time to do a couple of rotations to build combo points for Deliverance. For a trash pull though, save your stacks and infuriate for doing more damage in deliverance once aggro has been established in defiance. But after that... man the feeling of double tapping a fel cleave/decimate using infuriate with berserk IR, and BB up... Crazy stuff.

[Freyyy]

snip

Defiance is 25% damage penalty, not 20%. OP is 120 pot, Defiance lowers it to 90, so Unchained makes you gain 30 pot per OP. If you only use Unchained for 2-3 OP, it doesn't outweight a Decimate at all, even a single one. It's not precise maths at all so I may be mistaken here but I know that I parse crazy high on AoE pulls by not using Unchained and instead doing double Decimate. Unchained is worth using in AoE situations only if you plan on staying in Defiance for the full duration of it while spamming OP. If you plan on switching to Deliverance early, I'm almost 100% confident that you should keep yo stacks and go Decimate.