What is Zodiark?

[Cilia]

I still hold to the idea that Hydaelyn is a "fake," man-made Zodiark, but that doesn't necessarily mean she's evil or malicious. Just that she's a fake. The hypothesis here is that Zodiark was a jackass god, so the first men created Hydaelyn as a preferrable alternative in the same way beast tribes created the primals to deliver them from his jackassery.

Tempering? Well... from what we know, it's the Ascians who taught the beast tribes the summoning ritual, and that's why they tend to be jackass fakes of what they're intended to be (Good King Moggle Mog XII, f'ex). Considering that I find it likely that the Ascians can modify the summoning ritual to suit their needs, and the "tempering clause" is something that can be left out. Hydaelyn, being the very first primal, was one whose development was not influenced by the Ascians, since they either didn't exist or weren't aware of primals yet. They took Hydaelyn and used her creation to encourage the beast tribes to make their own "fake Zodiarks" in order to weaken her and bring Zodiark back.

Well, that's the theory anyway. (Patiently waits for 3.1 to debunk muh crazy crackpot theories)

[Februs]

Snip.

I like the idea that Hydaelyn is a fake, or stand-in, for Zodiark, and I agree that her status as a stand-in does not necessarily mean she's "evil." That being said, lore wise I'm not sure I'm as open to the idea that she is some form of Primal.

I've been taking most of my lore ques on this subject from the previous games that SE seems to be drawing content/inspiration from. So, if SE is holding strong to the lore of FFVI and XII/Tactics, it stands that there are "Gods" that are absolutely not dependent on Human prayer/faith/belief to sustain themselves and may, in fact, be the source of aether rather than requiring it to survive. The biggest nod to this is the recent addition of the Warring Triad to the game. If SE keeps the lore in tact, than the Warring Triad are not Pirmals/Eikons, but rather they actually created the first Primals in order to war against one another. If Hydaelyn and Zodiark are above them than I highly doubt they're Primals (albeit very strong ones).

Honestly, SE could just be making this all up from scratch and recycling the names from previous games (wouldn't be the first time. See Cid's numerous incarnations), but I really hope they're not. I think I'd find the original history to the Warring Triad much more interesting in the context of FFXIV than simply having every new "god" we encounter be exactly the same and have the same fundamental nature. For one, it would be boring to think that the most supreme and elite of all the gods/superbeings in FFXIV's universe are going to be explained as: "oh, it's just a really really strong primal," and it just wouldn't make sense, really. I mean, in theory. At least some of these deities have to have existed before humanoid species evolved. They can't be sustaining themselves on our faith if we didn't exist at the time, right?

Also, if all of the gods, Hydaelyn included, turn out to be primals, than the logical solution to all of the problems of FFXIV would be to simply put a stop to belief entirely... Which would probably require the mass genocide of all species, everywhere, throughout the cosmos... Admittedly, that would make for a very interesting plot twist, but I don't think we've seen any villains in FFXIV so far who have that kind of special brand of Kefka level insanity.

[Morningstar1337]

Also, if all of the gods, Hydaelyn included, turn out to be primals, than the logical solution to all of the problems of FFXIV would be to simply put a stop to belief entirely... Which would probably require the mass genocide of all species, everywhere, throughout the cosmos... Admittedly, that would make for a very interesting plot twist, but I don't think we've seen any villains in FFXIV so far who have that kind of special brand of Kefka level insanity.

Garlemald comes close. They already wanted to exterminate the Beast Tribes because they an summon primals and it is implied that once Regula comes back from Azys Lla and tells Varis about Shiva then their plains will be kicked into overdrive, their ends are likely to be in the worse case scenario, this specific omnicide.

And since Nael took cues from Sephiroth, it's possible that Regula or Varis would take on this grand of insanity (Jester motifs would be more unlikely)

[Februs]

Snip.

That's true. It crossed my mind that Varis may be the "world ending" kind of villain that we've come to know from previous FF titles, but I'm hesitant to commit to that interpretation of his character. For one, we don't really know much about him yet, as we've really only had the one encounter with him. He did show that he is willing to commit genocide to stop the summoning of false gods, but I'm not sure that's his primary goal. His approach to stopping Bismark was more of a logical conclusion than an emotionally driven hatred; so, it's hard to see him, at this point, making the leap to: "Welp, all these false gods everywhere... might as well burn the world to a cinder."

At this point, it's kind of hard to say. I think the question will be is the Garlean goal purely conquest, or is it to stop Primals? Basically, is the Garlean conquest a means of stopping all summonings, or are Tribal summonings a stone in the path to their goal of conquest, so they must be stopped for the real goal to be achieved? The motivation behind their aggression will give us some insight into how far they are willing to take it.

[Kuwagami]

At this point, it's kind of hard to say. I think the question will be is the Garlean goal purely conquest, or is it to stop Primals? Basically, is the Garlean conquest a means of stopping all summonings, or are Tribal summonings a stone in the path to their goal of conquest, so they must be stopped for the real goal to be achieved? The motivation behind their aggression will give us some insight into how far they are willing to take it.

from what we heard from Gaius, it seems to be the latter. Primals are an enormous threat for their conquest plans and thus they want to eradicate them, no matter what the cost is.

As for the "world ending villain", I'd rather have Elidibus take that role. The ministrel told us something about light and darkness, and about how one cannot wield both at once.

(french text as I could not find the english one and can't realistically grind a character just now for the english text xD )

♪La lumière de l'aube peut bien dissiper la plus sombre des nuits,
♪Mais dans le chaos, toujours le pouvoir des Primordiaux se déchaînera.
♪Deux épées les soumettront, l'une immaculée, l'autre ténébreuse,
♪Mais d'aucun ne peut espérer à la fois manier les deux.

lame translation :
light banishes darkness
in chaos, Primals go rampage
2 swords will subjugate them, one of light and one of darkness
but one cannot hope to wield both at once


So what would happen if someone (my bet would be Elidibus if FFxiv follows Golden Sun's scenario) tries to wield light and darkness at once ? World destruction is a very possible option

(btw, kind of a side note : it is rather amusing to see the quest for Odin in the "primal quest" part of the journal in game, while Ravana ex and Bismark Ex are under "Elder Primals".)

[Cilia]

Also, if all of the gods, Hydaelyn included, turn out to be primals, than the logical solution to all of the problems of FFXIV would be to simply put a stop to belief entirely... Which would probably require the mass genocide of all species, everywhere, throughout the cosmos... Admittedly, that would make for a very interesting plot twist, but I don't think we've seen any villains in FFXIV so far who have that kind of special brand of Kefka level insanity.

Not necessarily. That comes back to the reason for the primals' existence - because mortals want something they cannot easily get without divine assistance, or power beyond their means. Quoth Igeyorhm:

[Primals] are the embodiment of mortal will - of mortal desire.

... but that's not entirely true. Primals are the embodiment of mortal weaknesses, mortal flaws. People tend to create and summon primals in response to a hardship - that is, something they cannot overcome without great effort. The amalj'aa summoned Ifrit to help them conquer more of Thanalan, which Ul'dah's presence makes prohibitively difficult. The kobolds summoned Titan to protect them from Limsan expansion and reclaim the land they lost, which they cannot do without his assistance. The Ixal summoned Garuda to help them regain the ability to fly and destroy their enemies. Ysayle and Pope Thordan summoned Shiva and King Thordan, respectively, to end the Dragonsong War.

In all instances of a primal summoning thus far, it was due to tension between ideals and something being unobtainable without their power. Clashing ideals are one thing, but summoning a primal is not necessary to settle a dispute of ideals. The fact that people will resort to summoning a phantom god speaks volumes about their character, though - their weakness of heart gives birth to a desperate wish, and it is from that desperation a primal is summoned. That's what makes us so strong - not only are we able to overcome the despair that creates and summons primals, we never give in to despair ourselves. We fight with our own strength, and don't borrow power from or rely on the power of a (phantom) god. (The only time we really needed Hydaelyn's protection was to survive Ultima, which was, well, a freakin' nuke.)

If everyone was strong enough to accept hardship, there would be no need for primals. Faith is not a bad thing, but when it goes to extremes like the primals do, well, conflict is inevitable, even if it is to the detriment of everyone involved. Thus, while the Garleans have a valid point, they simply take it too far because their extremism only pushes others to the opposite extreme.

Any social commentary on religion is purely imagined on your part. I assure you.

I admit it'd be kinda boring to have every god be a primal of varying power, or perhaps an eikon (which as far as we can figure is just a primal that doesn't need active worshipers). Still, we have yet to understand much beyond "Hydaelyn is a goddess." As a scientific person, it's not really in my nature to just accept that as truth, or not ask where she came from or what gives her power...

I try to avoid taking my cues from previous games in the franchise, as while elements tend to be common I personally don't think entire plot points and themes should be reused. (Makes them seem lazy.) Most of my cues are taken from the Dark Souls games, which despite being 10x more cynical than Final Fantasy also deals with cyclical history, an unbreakable circle of fate, and duality, like XIV seems to.

[Fenral]

I try to avoid taking my cues from previous games in the franchise, as while elements tend to be common I personally don't think entire plot points and themes should be reused. (Makes them seem lazy.)

Sure, because rejecting the overarching themes of self-love, free will, and mankind's inherent and unlimited potential that run through the entire series simply for the sake of being contrarian would make for a much better story. The themes were kind of the only thing tying together Final Fantasy games when they decided to go further out there (like FFVIII), and even the ever-polarizing Final Fantasy XIII knew better than to mess with that. Don't really feel like starting a fight over whether or not Final Fantasy XIV is being true to that or not, since there's ample evidence in both directions, just saying that Moogles and Chocobos and a fairly consistent set of summoned creatures is only the tiniest part of what Final Fantasy means to admittedly-overanalytical people like me.

[Kallera]

Sure, because rejecting the overarching themes of self-love, free will, and mankind's inherent and unlimited potential that run through the entire series simply for the sake of being contrarian would make for a much better story....

I don't think Cilia was talking about rejecting the themes, so much as not copying plot pieces in previous games word for word.

...
In all instances of a primal summoning thus far, it was due to tension between ideals and something being unobtainable without their power. Clashing ideals are one thing, but summoning a primal is not necessary to settle a dispute of ideals. The fact that people will resort to summoning a phantom god speaks volumes about their character, though - their weakness of heart gives birth to a desperate wish, and it is from that desperation a primal is summoned. That's what makes us so strong - not only are we able to overcome the despair that creates and summons primals, we never give in to despair ourselves. We fight with our own strength, and don't borrow power from or rely on the power of a (phantom) god. (The only time we really needed Hydaelyn's protection was to survive Ultima, which was, well, a freakin' nuke.)...

I'm not sure this is true. yes, Hydaelyn's power occured visibly in that instance. but from the way the echo and blessing are described we could possibly be using the blessing in every battle we are in, not in the manner of life saving shields, mind you, but our ability to take on shrug off blows from vicious beasts on a level that would cream the average soldier. I'm not sure where our own personal power begins and the power afforded by "being Hydaelyn's champion" ends, unless Heavensward's blessing is us attaining and use the blessing solely through the use of the crystals of light, which would mean the blessing ONLY requires the crystals of light, and can be not connected with Hydaelyns will at all. Then it becomes a lot easier to answer.

If everyone was strong enough to accept hardship, there would be no need for primals. Faith is not a bad thing, but when it goes to extremes like the primals do, well, conflict is inevitable, even if it is to the detriment of everyone involved. Thus, while the Garleans have a valid point, they simply take it too far because their extremism only pushes others to the opposite extreme.

Any social commentary on religion is purely imagined on your part. I assure you.

"If only people could accept their lot without turning to otherworldly powers..." Is simply easier to say for some than others, particularly when the body count starts. It kinda points out that the "Warrior of Light", however strong they are, is not a permanent solution to the primal question, either. Primals are kinda like nukes in a way. once the knowledge and proliferation of their creations becomes more and more common, it only becomes more difficult to contain.

I admit it'd be kinda boring to have every god be a primal of varying power, or perhaps an eikon (which as far as we can figure is just a primal that doesn't need active worshipers). Still, we have yet to understand much beyond "Hydaelyn is a goddess." As a scientific person, it's not really in my nature to just accept that as truth, or not ask where she came from or what gives her power...

This is an important question to find out, given the currently theories of our character.