The issue nobody wants to address

[MentheusDreyar]

But you're assuming that because someone doesn't want to engage in parser use, they have something to hide.

By the simple fact they aren't showing something they are hiding something figuratively and literally. There's no legit reason to really hide your performance when you could not only affect your playing experience but up to 23 others. It's plain inconsiderate and rude, as well as potentially detrimental.

As I said in the post you replied to and many of my previous posts, I can see that parsers potentially have a benefit in end-game content, premade parties and statics. However I am against forcing everyone into using parsers, as I suggested before, and Archaell suggested in another topic recently, give players opinions and control over whether they participate in parsing. If the parsing of a player's numbers is under their own personal control, I see no issues with having parsers.

And therefore invalidating the reason it would have been put in to begin with. What happens when you wipe and a few people have hidden their stats? The way parser's are written even without any potential console limitations, they can't magically make that data reappear because they were never tracking it. So not only did you wipe, but now you will have to more than likely wipe AGAIN just to see if you can pinpoint the problems providing those people allow themselves to be parsed, which is likely to not happen if they were hiding it in the first place.

This situation would be common place in PUG's and no one is going to be willing to wipe multiple times for the sake of those who don't care in the first place. A just as likely situation is an experienced player joins and demand's people turn their parser's on, again, people aren't going to waste their time for the sake of other's not giving a sh%$ Plenty of us use DF to help others as well as get rewards, but if we can get equal rewards elsewhere without putting up with all this why would we join those people?

You're overlooking something though, and you're even using it to back yourself up. Archaell gave an idea of splitting DF into "parser" and "non parser" and then later when to make a speculation i 100% agree with. When the non parsing DF is filled with all the "bads" and no content is getting done those queue's will be dead. So many people rely on us experienced players to drag them through content, give us a reason to split off from them and you can imagine whats going to happen..

And anyone wanting content done this century is gonna demand those parsers.

[MentheusDreyar]

Would players presently using a parser appreciate it if they were discriminated against based on their use of a parser?

We already are, so i don't see your point...

Try to help? Get told to basically F@$% off.

Try to explain in a vague way to avoid direct confirmation that you are using a parser? Nothing really changes or get told to prove it or F@$% off.

Try to give actual number's and stats to explain and help in detail? Probably all of the above AND we risk getting reported and banned.

We can't legally help and explain without risk to ourselves so we are forced to kick and act like "elitists" because we can't help so the next best thing to do is remove them. How does this situation help at all!? IT DOESN'T Who does this help at all? Very few people because no one gets feedback to improve.

Things are better out in the open. There's positives and negatives yes, but the fact remains there's ZERO POSITIVES for hiding your data for anyone in a group.

[Kosmos992k]

We already are, so i don't see your point...

Try to help? Get told to basically F@$% off.

Try to explain in a vague way to avoid direct confirmation that you are using a parser? Nothing really changes or get told to prove it or F@$% off.

2 things.

1) That's false. No one will discriminate against you for running a parser on your PC, because they have no idea nor care if you are.

2) As I have tried to point out innumerable times, people get defensive when they are being criticized and when offered unsolicited advice. You're talking about people reacting negatively to your using parser data against them, not reacting negatively to your personal use of a parse, there is a key difference, one involves players besides yourself, the other is purely personal.

I'll say it again, "Would players presently using a parser appreciate it if they were discriminated against based on their use of a parser?".

You can't be discriminated against because no one has anyway of knowing whether or not you personally do use a parser or not. What you are talking about is what happens when you take your parser data that you collected and try to use it, and then other players react negatively. That is not discrimination, that's the reaction of players to being criticized or receiving unsolicited advice. No one is stopping you from running your parser privately or with friends, nor are they trying to prevent you from grouping with them, because it's not an issue - unless your own actions make it an issue..

Now if I may explain my point further. The instance when parsing is optional and dependant on the player's choice inside a single DF queue is the same like telling the anti-parsing player that they can turn off the parsing window so that they do not see themself being parsed.

Why would that be the case? If I am grouped with 3 other players all of who are allowing parsing, and I am not, why would the game prevent each of the other three from seeing the parser data for their own performance and that of the other two players?

I'm suggesting that only the numbers of the player who disabled parsing of their numbers should be omitted from the parser data - and that to be fair, if you disallow parsing, you don't get to see the parsed data of the others in the party. That way, those who want to be parsed can participate and see each others numbers and those that do not, don't appear in the parse at all, and can't see the parse of others. It would not be fair to anyone to allow a player to disable parsing and still see the data feed from the in-game parser.

[Whiteroom]

2 things.

1) That's false. No one will discriminate against you for running a parser on your PC, because they have no idea nor care if you are.

Really? Considering if you type the words "I am running a Parser" you can get banned.

Considering if someone knows you are, and asks their numbers, you can get banned for saying it?

Why would that be the case? If I am grouped with 3 other players all of who are allowing parsing, and I am not, why would the game prevent each of the other three from seeing the parser data for their own performance and that of the other two players?

Are you seriously unable to understand what he is saying? Or are you trolling?
I mean, you flat out ignore all negatives presented with your idea. You don't even use them to adjust it and make it better as he did.

[Kosmos992k]

Really? Considering if you type the words "I am running a Parser" you can get banned.

Guess what? That's not discrimination, that's the impact of the terms and conditions of use being applied.

Are you seriously unable to understand what he is saying? Or are you trolling?
I mean, you flat out ignore all negatives presented with your idea. You don't even use them to adjust it and make it better as he did.

Instead of calling me names and over-reacting, why don't you be so kind as to explain how you think I am ignoring what was said?

i think the major crux of all this is duty roulette verses first time clear

it would be nice if there was a speedrun option for the df that would only put you with speedrun people

I think that Party Finder is what you are looking for since you can group with like minded players and speed run to your heart's delight.

[Whiteroom]

Instead of calling me names and over-reacting, why don't you be so kind as to explain how you think I am ignoring what was said?

Because its not over reacting or name calling. You are blatantly ignoring all of the negatives with your own suggestion. Its a serious question, even the ones put in a constructive manner, with suggestions to make the idea better and less prone to abuse. You falsely accuse others of ignoring the negatives of parsers, all the while completely ignoring the negatives of your suggestion. Ones that since you have made referances to your deeper understanding of human nature should be glaringly obvious to you. What else am I supposed to think other than trolling? Also, he was very clear about it being two separate df's for parsing and not parsing.

I'm suggesting that only the numbers of the player who disabled parsing of their numbers should be omitted from the parser data

I'm pretty sure everyone fully understands what you are suggesting, it is not a foreign or new concept. That you, who seem to think parsers create widespread abuse, cannot see how people would view the person hiding their numbers in runs where dps check fail, is mind boggling. Especially when you can consider the process of elimination of seeing the other numbers. At that point they wouldn't even be guessing that the person who was hiding their numbers was the issue, as long as everyone who showed theirs was fine.

[Archaell]

Yep. We need to split up queues to bring the issues to light.

...

I am going to be blunt - NO TOLERANCE FOR CARRYING. You join the group, you better pull your weight or you should leave. Nope, others should not have to kick you for underperforming. YOU SHOULD LEAVE ON YOUR OWN. You should admit that you are holding the group back and unless you improve, you should not return back. Now, tell me, how many players at this moment act like this? How many? Do you see players that they leave hard mode trials when dps checks fail? Yes, you do. You see the ones that use parser, because they can't be bother to be exploited anymore.

It is simple. People on the internet are not responsible enough to consider feelings of others - which is one of the anti-parser arguments. With parser you can see that somebody is slacking or doing something that is out of their league. Do you know what happens when you try to drive a truck with driver's licence for cars? You put others in danger. Carrying is the same. You waste other players' lives for your own convinience. To use FFXIV context: Do you know what happens when you wipe the group again and again as healer or tank? You get kicked or the group disbands... and no! Convinience of players who are doing something beyond their skill does not matter. You want to do stuff? Then work on your skill, nobody stops you from doing that. Play lower level content till you learn enough about your class and till you get better enough to play harder things.

Tell me, is forcing others to carry you punishable offense by GMs? No.

Is harassing others with parser data punishable by GMs? Yes!

Do you see the problem?

We have no way to enforce that players would pass the first grade before entering the eight one. For this you have exams. In this sense parse is an exam that shows your ability to clear the content. It is your choice to enter content beyond your sklil. Your choice to show your performance to the world. Right now not many care, they enjoy the ride, they join harder and harder content putting additional pressure on top of the one your capable players already have to deal with.

This is why we need parsers.

...

tl;dr Geting carried is bad. If you want to continue your actions, you better take responsibility for it. The period of being not responsible for your part should end now! - love the exclamation mark, not much the tone that I had to use.

[Kosmos992k]

Yep. We need to split up queues to bring the issues to light.

I am going to be blunt - NO TOLERANCE FOR CARRYING. You join the group, you better pull your weight or you should leave. Nope, others should not have to kick you for underperforming. YOU SHOULD LEAVE ON YOUR OWN. You should admit that you are holding the group back and unless you improve, you should not return back. Now, tell me, how many players at this moment act like this? How many? Do you see players that they leave hard mode trials when dps checks fail? Yes, you do. You see the ones that use parser, because they can't be bother to be exploited anymore.

This will be my last reply in this thread, and I shall be blunt also.

The reality is that if a player who is terrible at their job lies about their ability when joining your PF group, then they deserve no tolerance for trying to obtain a carry by deception. If they can't pull their weight, the party leader is within their rights to kick the player from the group, and report them for harassment by lying in order to join the group. I don't know what the GMs would do, but certainly you can kick them, because it is YOUR party.

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You always frame this discussion with the thought that all these players out there are going to force you to carry them through content. The trouble is that in fact Duty Finder is expressly designed for players who can't get into a group, to run specific content. Duty Roulette is explicitly there to help less able or newer players through content so that they can progress as well. That is what Duty Finder is for. All of the DPS checks and specific performance demands and 'standards' of performance you or anyone wishes to impose on others can be done in PF groups or your own statics already without any repercussions on you.

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game. You might say, that's fine because they were not good enough any way. It's not fine, at all. This game is accepting of players of all capability and everyone can enjoy the game and it's story. Duty Finder and Duty Roulette are part of that accessibility. If parsing was implemented as you advocate, I believe it would have an immediate effect, and change the game forever. That change would make it much less tolerant and accessible. I won't hazard a guess at how many players would be lost, but I would estimate it as a larger group than the end-game community.

It seems to me that the biggest issue here is that this game is designed and implemented in such a way that the player-base includes gamers of very different abilities. Those advocating parser use seem to me to disagree with this philosophy, and would happily see players of lesser skill either improve or get out. Suddenly an inclusive game becomes much more closed and exclusive. So much for altruism.

[Kolaina]

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game.

this is all assumptions. and is the duty finder not already like this? have you not seen the behaviour of the general population?

[Ryel]

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You keep missing the part where nobody is talking about other players performing up to community standards, they're talking about performing up to the very low and basic standards SE has put forth for many of their encounters.

Just a few pages ago myself and a few other posters have illustrated that many of the dungeons that have ended up in Ex roulette and a number of new the Heavensward leveling dungeons do actually place some very low requirements for players to meet, failure to meet those low requirements can actually make it impossible to clear those dungeons.

You can say there are "new" and "not very good" players all you want, but what does that say for dungeon runs that either just aren't being completed due to failing to pass checks or that are being completed by just 3 of the party members?

There is a very low bar of expected play for a lot of this content, and it isn't community set. There are cases where there are players playing so far beneath that bar that they might as well not be there at all, or in the worst case they are actually hindering the party because the dungeon is expecting 4 players to be performing at a minimum skill level.

So what are people in this thread asking for?

A tangible feedback tool that is made available to the entire playerbase to allow many of these "new" and "not so good" players to see where they stand and maybe improve to the point that they are actively contributing. Nobody is asking or expecting them to go above or beyond, nor are they sitting here thinking that there's suddenly going to be this new wave of pro level players, but hey if it happened would that actually be so bad?

If you do anything from playing a game to taking up a hobby, how do you become better at it? Through practice and feedback.

Even someone shooting hoops in their backyard for fun knows when they're missing the basket, and someone giving them pointers on their shooting form isn't suddenly expecting them to tryout for the NBA.

What all of this fear mongering and negativity against the addition of a self improvement tool is really doing is basically saying "we don't want players to get better" or "We don't want players to have the tools to help themselves, instead just let them be bad" which to be perfectly honest comes across as far more toxic to the community to me than the alternative.