The issue nobody wants to address

[Archaell]

Yep. We need to split up queues to bring the issues to light.

...

I am going to be blunt - NO TOLERANCE FOR CARRYING. You join the group, you better pull your weight or you should leave. Nope, others should not have to kick you for underperforming. YOU SHOULD LEAVE ON YOUR OWN. You should admit that you are holding the group back and unless you improve, you should not return back. Now, tell me, how many players at this moment act like this? How many? Do you see players that they leave hard mode trials when dps checks fail? Yes, you do. You see the ones that use parser, because they can't be bother to be exploited anymore.

It is simple. People on the internet are not responsible enough to consider feelings of others - which is one of the anti-parser arguments. With parser you can see that somebody is slacking or doing something that is out of their league. Do you know what happens when you try to drive a truck with driver's licence for cars? You put others in danger. Carrying is the same. You waste other players' lives for your own convinience. To use FFXIV context: Do you know what happens when you wipe the group again and again as healer or tank? You get kicked or the group disbands... and no! Convinience of players who are doing something beyond their skill does not matter. You want to do stuff? Then work on your skill, nobody stops you from doing that. Play lower level content till you learn enough about your class and till you get better enough to play harder things.

Tell me, is forcing others to carry you punishable offense by GMs? No.

Is harassing others with parser data punishable by GMs? Yes!

Do you see the problem?

We have no way to enforce that players would pass the first grade before entering the eight one. For this you have exams. In this sense parse is an exam that shows your ability to clear the content. It is your choice to enter content beyond your sklil. Your choice to show your performance to the world. Right now not many care, they enjoy the ride, they join harder and harder content putting additional pressure on top of the one your capable players already have to deal with.

This is why we need parsers.

...

tl;dr Geting carried is bad. If you want to continue your actions, you better take responsibility for it. The period of being not responsible for your part should end now! - love the exclamation mark, not much the tone that I had to use.

[Kosmos992k]

Yep. We need to split up queues to bring the issues to light.

I am going to be blunt - NO TOLERANCE FOR CARRYING. You join the group, you better pull your weight or you should leave. Nope, others should not have to kick you for underperforming. YOU SHOULD LEAVE ON YOUR OWN. You should admit that you are holding the group back and unless you improve, you should not return back. Now, tell me, how many players at this moment act like this? How many? Do you see players that they leave hard mode trials when dps checks fail? Yes, you do. You see the ones that use parser, because they can't be bother to be exploited anymore.

This will be my last reply in this thread, and I shall be blunt also.

The reality is that if a player who is terrible at their job lies about their ability when joining your PF group, then they deserve no tolerance for trying to obtain a carry by deception. If they can't pull their weight, the party leader is within their rights to kick the player from the group, and report them for harassment by lying in order to join the group. I don't know what the GMs would do, but certainly you can kick them, because it is YOUR party.

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You always frame this discussion with the thought that all these players out there are going to force you to carry them through content. The trouble is that in fact Duty Finder is expressly designed for players who can't get into a group, to run specific content. Duty Roulette is explicitly there to help less able or newer players through content so that they can progress as well. That is what Duty Finder is for. All of the DPS checks and specific performance demands and 'standards' of performance you or anyone wishes to impose on others can be done in PF groups or your own statics already without any repercussions on you.

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game. You might say, that's fine because they were not good enough any way. It's not fine, at all. This game is accepting of players of all capability and everyone can enjoy the game and it's story. Duty Finder and Duty Roulette are part of that accessibility. If parsing was implemented as you advocate, I believe it would have an immediate effect, and change the game forever. That change would make it much less tolerant and accessible. I won't hazard a guess at how many players would be lost, but I would estimate it as a larger group than the end-game community.

It seems to me that the biggest issue here is that this game is designed and implemented in such a way that the player-base includes gamers of very different abilities. Those advocating parser use seem to me to disagree with this philosophy, and would happily see players of lesser skill either improve or get out. Suddenly an inclusive game becomes much more closed and exclusive. So much for altruism.

[Kolaina]

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game.

this is all assumptions. and is the duty finder not already like this? have you not seen the behaviour of the general population?

[Ryel]

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You keep missing the part where nobody is talking about other players performing up to community standards, they're talking about performing up to the very low and basic standards SE has put forth for many of their encounters.

Just a few pages ago myself and a few other posters have illustrated that many of the dungeons that have ended up in Ex roulette and a number of new the Heavensward leveling dungeons do actually place some very low requirements for players to meet, failure to meet those low requirements can actually make it impossible to clear those dungeons.

You can say there are "new" and "not very good" players all you want, but what does that say for dungeon runs that either just aren't being completed due to failing to pass checks or that are being completed by just 3 of the party members?

There is a very low bar of expected play for a lot of this content, and it isn't community set. There are cases where there are players playing so far beneath that bar that they might as well not be there at all, or in the worst case they are actually hindering the party because the dungeon is expecting 4 players to be performing at a minimum skill level.

So what are people in this thread asking for?

A tangible feedback tool that is made available to the entire playerbase to allow many of these "new" and "not so good" players to see where they stand and maybe improve to the point that they are actively contributing. Nobody is asking or expecting them to go above or beyond, nor are they sitting here thinking that there's suddenly going to be this new wave of pro level players, but hey if it happened would that actually be so bad?

If you do anything from playing a game to taking up a hobby, how do you become better at it? Through practice and feedback.

Even someone shooting hoops in their backyard for fun knows when they're missing the basket, and someone giving them pointers on their shooting form isn't suddenly expecting them to tryout for the NBA.

What all of this fear mongering and negativity against the addition of a self improvement tool is really doing is basically saying "we don't want players to get better" or "We don't want players to have the tools to help themselves, instead just let them be bad" which to be perfectly honest comes across as far more toxic to the community to me than the alternative.

[Jynx]

Even someone shooting hoops in their backyard for fun knows when they're missing the basket, and someone giving them pointers on their shooting form isn't suddenly expecting them to tryout for the NBA.

Said person giving pointers is obviously not also sitting there keeping tally. Parsing someone in a party environment is not giving the individual player tools to up their game it's giving others a tool to preen over less skilled characters and force their ideal of what needs to be done upon them.

Like I said before it's just not as simple as putting this system in and expecting people who don't even know what a parser is to understand what those numbers represent and how to accuractly interpret them without falling into bad habbits.

Bad DPS aren't just bad at rotations they are bad at dodging, being situationally aware of party members and mechanics that surround them. In the content that doesn't require this the bar is set so low a parser has no real use as it's a matter of looking at who is AFK against the wall if your somehow failing dungeon DPS checks. Throwing these powerfull tool at peoples feet is just asking for trouble as far as I'm concerned. Again YOU and people who parse may understand the numbers and know what's going on but it will just become a straight up numbers game to people causing bad habbits in the bad DPS. Sure maybe the numbers will go up but what about dodging and not getting killed? Proper Mechanics? Plenty are bound to forgo dodging an attack because it would lower their DPS, hell we allready see it in the parsing community allready.

Your trying to fix one problem and introduce another.

[Archaell]

...

"In duty finder it is no ones and everyones party" - I agree with that. That's exactly why the party should know who is not contributing to the team efforts enough, so that they can vote and decide for themselves.

Duty finder is resource which should allow you to do the content that your skill allows - not to be dragged through it. Lack of parser data decreases the chance of players improvement. We can help new players with the instance itself - nobody is against that. But we aren't there to do their work for them. Something okay in Brayflox is no longer okay in Garuda normal. Players have to learn, instead of expecting carrying. Many of us will be even willing to give them pointers when it comes to their job, but we lack the data or are not allowed to mention them. When several players used to get carried trough the game meet in one group, guess what happens? It is not enjoyable experience. And I am talking from my own experience as new player when I had to heal undergeared gladiators in Garuda normal.

DPS checks demands are required by the game, not by the players.

Nobody wants to make duty finder competive and intolerant resource - just do the content you are able to do till you get better.

Nobody wants to remove new players from the game. On the other hand we want to help them get better, but in the part of the game where they start falling behind, not when the group fails Bismark NM again and again.

[Kosmos992k]

I said I was done with this thread, and I am.

I'm not replying to any points or questions, but I wanted to say something to Archaell and the same thoughts apply to others in this topic as well. But since Archaell and I have had quite a back and forth in the topic, I am directing this to Archaell.

I meant to include this in my actual last response to the topic, but forgot it, and so I'll put it into a new post.

I wanted to thank you for discussing the topic with less emotion and Hyperbole than some. I have tried to do likewise, and if I have not always succeeded, I am sorry. I know that we disagree over a small, but significant issue, however I'd be happy to group with you in game, I may not be the best PLD/WHM out there, but I like to think I can hold aggro and still put out more DPS than my autoattacks We're not on the same server or data center so it is unlikely we'll meet, but if for any reason we do, any disagreements we have in this forum, exist only within the threads of this forum.

Despite disagreeing on that very specific issue (which of course has implications through much of the discussion) I think we're both united in wanting the game to be a success and the community to grow and prosper. We both discuss this matter with passion and one thing is for sure, I would rather discuss matters with one player passionate about the game(even if the debate becomes impassioned), than discuss it with 100 people who agree but have little if any passion for the game.

Have fun. I hope neither of our fears come to pass and some other form of compromise rules the day and works for everyone.

-Kosmos

[dank1]

This will be my last reply in this thread, and I shall be blunt also.

The reality is that if a player who is terrible at their job lies about their ability when joining your PF group, then they deserve no tolerance for trying to obtain a carry by deception. If they can't pull their weight, the party leader is within their rights to kick the player from the group, and report them for harassment by lying in order to join the group. I don't know what the GMs would do, but certainly you can kick them, because it is YOUR party.

In Duty Finder, it's no one's and everyone's party, there is no expectation of ability, no lying about ability to get into a run, nothing like that at all. The Duty Finder is for players of all ability. In that environment, a parser by default becomes a weapon that can be used to exclude players who are either new or not as good as others might wish. That is a major change from the current environment in which the Duty Finder is a useful resource for new players, and others alike. Imposing a parser ultimately makes the resource designed to help new players and others a much less forgiving and tolerant place and effectively cuts off that avenue for players who need pick up groups.

You always frame this discussion with the thought that all these players out there are going to force you to carry them through content. The trouble is that in fact Duty Finder is expressly designed for players who can't get into a group, to run specific content. Duty Roulette is explicitly there to help less able or newer players through content so that they can progress as well. That is what Duty Finder is for. All of the DPS checks and specific performance demands and 'standards' of performance you or anyone wishes to impose on others can be done in PF groups or your own statics already without any repercussions on you.

If you make Duty Finder a competitive, and intolerant resource, you are effectively disenfranchising a lot of players new and old, and I think you will drive players from the game. You might say, that's fine because they were not good enough any way. It's not fine, at all. This game is accepting of players of all capability and everyone can enjoy the game and it's story. Duty Finder and Duty Roulette are part of that accessibility. If parsing was implemented as you advocate, I believe it would have an immediate effect, and change the game forever. That change would make it much less tolerant and accessible. I won't hazard a guess at how many players would be lost, but I would estimate it as a larger group than the end-game community.

It seems to me that the biggest issue here is that this game is designed and implemented in such a way that the player-base includes gamers of very different abilities. Those advocating parser use seem to me to disagree with this philosophy, and would happily see players of lesser skill either improve or get out. Suddenly an inclusive game becomes much more closed and exclusive. So much for altruism.

DF: DF has never been officially stated as a tool for new players, in fact a lot of content when first introduced isnt even available on the DF, UNTIL players are familiar with said content a few months down, that in and of itself should help us imply what DF should be used for.

Now, I'm not a closed minded individual and I understand new players will get into the DF (usually identified by their low ilvl gear) and I'm sure more of the community who cares about performance is also smart enough to identify new players or are at least vocal and ask these players; these are not the players we're all complaining about. As had been made obvious before the players were concerned with are those who CAN (keyword CAN) pull their weight but dont.
A parser let's me know just that, no if ands or buts, of course again having a brain I will speak out and inquire, if I receive no response or some bs backlash it it my player given right to vote kick anyone I deem to be harassing our group (i.e by not performing)

I initially made this thread to inquire as to why these players who expect to be carried or get angry when asked why theyre underperforming get coddled so much by this community, to this page in the thead there has been no answer why, only excuses as to why said player may have not been performing, which I refuse to believe is the reason why in 90% of instances. And I'm still baffled as to why some of the community tries to make excuses for these players in the first place anyway

What it boils down to; many people cry gloom and doom when asking for players who are being carried to be held accountable yet they fail to see the issue we're having NOW, able players arent performing, personally I dont think they deserve free passes

[Whiteroom]

snip

I think that is a really big question, I had a little thought on it today, unfortunately it would take forever and a day to write down. Some of it is social, some not. I would say it comes from a lot of different factors. One of the main being the social movement I touched on earlier in the thread, "The everyone gets an award" movement.

I also think a lot of it has to do with the way the game was developed. Specifically Duty Roulettes and Relic Quests, and the Tomestone system.
I'm tired here and don't want to write all the fine points as it was a passing thought, and not fleshed out. Please keep that in mind.

By this I mean there was a problem. All MMOs face it. The bulk of players have made their way through the early content. Now new players will have to wait forever to queue for dungeons, leading to dissatisfaction and quitting the game. Being able to level alt classes helps this.

But it is not enough. So you tack on daily roulette bonuses, people still leveling get a sweet chunk of exp in turn for filling out those lower level queues that need filling. Not so bad, most are still leveling, so dungeons are not played out yet.

Now we face the problem not only of keeping the newer dungeons full, but keeping people busy between patches. Insert Tomestone farming and bonuses. I for example will have run the two new dungeons a minimum of around 100 times by the time 3.1 hits. Yes, I am tired of them. But Daily roulette is the quickest way for me to get the tomes to gear up anyone of the 5 and soon to be 7 classes I have at 60.

Now we are still facing long queue times, so we insert some Relic Quest RNG runs! I'm sure that sends shivers down some spines. I ran into one person on their 42nd run of Sastasha HM. And I've read of people having 70-100 runs of a single dungeon for a drop!

Well before the time you get through this, almost everyone is in speed run mode. The faster you run, the faster you finish, the more you finish, the quicker you get your drop. The quicker you get your drop, the quicker you move on to the next. Even without that, you are sick of the dungeon, and want to get them over with, and you know it inside out.

On top of all this, you have your hard to get drops from all other places, like your CT and soon to be Void Ark runs. You need to get onto those drops! It has been beat and abused and conditioned into us over the years of gaming!

So, at some point, some start flipping out at the slow players, while most just put their head down and drag them through it. There is less helping people, and more dragging. People think they are doing fine and dandy because, from the first time they went through, things were going fine, they never had to perfect the mechanics and their rotations, as there was consistently people who were overgeared and had run the dungeon tons of times, facerolling everything in their path. Either way, its harder to learn.

So now you haven't had to give it your all in dps checks, as you were being carried, you think everything's fine because of the same, and there is no metric to confirm or disprove this belief. Now, queue for BEX.

Of course, this idea is not fully fleshed out, and I'm tired, so I think I missed a large connection I made in the middle, earlier, but I am tired, and it's thanksgiving up here, so I had a couple earlier. So I'll leave the above nonsense for clearer heads right now.

But something along the lines of the devs solution to one problem, helped create another. Their solution coupled with the whole, everything must be a grind mentality, causes carries.

[Gilraen]

DF: DF has never been officially stated as a tool for new players, in fact a lot of content when first introduced isnt even available on the DF, UNTIL players are familiar with said content a few months down, that in and of itself should help us imply what DF should be used for.

Wow... I don't know where you got that drivel but that's so far from true it's disturbing. Near all content, when first unlocked, tells you rather directly to beat it through Duty Finder. The exceptions, and these are exceptions, are raids like Coil or Savage Alexander and the recent extreme primals. Everything else has been unlocked through a quest that leads to Duty Finder. So yes, Duty Finder is officially stated as a tool for new players.