Monk's Heavensward abilities

[trailmix9999]

You're joking right?

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You really think that tiny 3% damage increase at GL3 suddenly boosted monk from being at the bottom of the melees, well behind DRG particularly, to the top? Some quick math should tell you 3% is not a lot. Lol....and the rest of the additions since launch to monk have only been QoL.
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http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=21

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=20

I don't know what else to tell you.. MNK is consistently out DPSing NIN and DRG in ST and AOE. I really don't think you understand how much a 3% buff to MNK is with all of its modifiers. I also was not arguing that MNK utility is better than NIN that would be silly, I was simply stating that MNK utility COULD increase raid DPS if used properly. You just fail to understand.

[Adire]

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=21

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#boss=20

I don't know what else to tell you.. MNK is consistently out DPSing NIN and DRG in ST and AOE. I really don't think you understand how much a 3% buff to MNK is with all of its modifiers. I also was not arguing that MNK utility is better than NIN that would be silly, I was simply stating that MNK utility COULD increase raid DPS if used properly. You just fail to understand.

No worries, I do understand. Seems you're failing to understand actually. 3% really isn't that much of a boost, modifiers or not. Could you imagine GL with no damage boost? Monk would be incredibly weak. It takes that large amount of 30% damage boost + skill speed from GL + fists of fire (which really isn't that much of a difference either, on or off. Try it if you don't believe me. In my tests, FoF on gives quite a tiny dps boost vs off. No reason not to have it on though of course.) to bring monk up to par, and that should go to show you even further how insignificant 3% is. Measuring yourself without FoF on will give you an idea of what kind of increase you get from the 3% buff that monks were given.

If your result is different from mine, please do say so. Unless something is going terribly wrong on my end with the numbers coming in, I can say the difference is minimal.

Also, if you'll note:

Look at the highest numbers on Ravana Ex specifically, a fight where more people have participated than in savage: http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/4#boss=1028

With a larger pool of players participating in this giving it a larger and more accurate representation of job DPS as a result, with the exception of one monk, DRGs are wiping the floor with MNKs in the top DPS tier and Ninjas are competing with them quite fiercely.

Dragoons may have not been able to get much luck hitting their damage ceiling in savage yet, but in Ravana Ex, you can clearly see for the most part, in the top dps tier, Dragoons are winning against monks. The same thing was happening around launch, when Ravana was a longer lasting fight, so it's not just burst damage.


And you were actually arguing that monk utility is competitive with NIN. You emphasized mantra's dps boost in a way that you said it makes MNK competitive with NIN for raid utility. It is not. Why else would you list MNK's one useful utility skill? Everyone knows already that MNK has Mantra O.o. No reason to say that, unless you know, you felt like it was worth comparing to Ninja's utility. Glad you seem to agree now though that comparing the two is silly, Ninja utility blows Monk utility out.

[TheMax1087]

Also, if you'll note:

Look at the highest numbers on Ravana Ex specifically, a fight where more people have participated than in savage: http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/4#boss=1028

With a larger pool of players participating in this giving it a larger and more accurate representation of job DPS as a result, with the exception of one monk, DRGs are wiping the floor with MNKs in the top DPS tier and Ninjas are competing with them quite fiercely.

Dragoons may have not been able to get much luck hitting their damage ceiling in savage yet, but in Ravana Ex, you can clearly see for the most part, in the top dps tier, Dragoons are winning against monks. The same thing was happening around launch, when Ravana was a longer lasting fight, so it's not just burst damage.

Those statements are ridiculously misleading. Besides the fact that there are actually far fewer ravana's recorded there than a3s(as the majority of people using that site had long since stopped doing ravana by the time the site became popular, leading to over twice as many a3 parses than ravana), if you actually look at the statistics, despite ravana being a monk unfriendly fight with a minimum 5 gl drops, the highest parse there is a monk, there are as many monks between 1000-1100 as there are dragoons, and far more between 950-1000 than the other two melee.

[RapBreon]

-snip-

Using one fight...not a good idea. That fight punishes MNKs more than any other class. Like realllllly bad so many phase changes, so quickly.

Also 3% is like what 30ish DPS at 1500DPS once you factor in diminishing returns (educated guess)? That's sizable in my view. My DRG does 1450 on a TD, factor in the 10% piercing debuff I give to my BRD/MCH (120-130DPSish). That puts me at almost 1600 DPS contribution (BL is hard so I'm rounding up a bit and I'm kind of rushing this). That would be 100DPS more than a MNK before a 3% buff. After a 3% buff it's only 70DPS. This effectively puts MNK within range of a NIN.

MNKs were already on par with DRGs before the buff (not including piercing + BL) now they're ahead on personal meter tracked contribution.

EDIT: also the guy above me brings up a good point about when the site was introduced! +1

[Adire]

My mistake then, disregard that part of my post. I did not know that.

My point still stands though on the other parts though. 3% is quite an insignificant buff, and DRGs at launch were parsing higher than monks. The 3% buff is not going to seal that gap by itself. What's more likely at the moment is that dragoons are struggling to reach their damage ceiling currently, but it is higher.

I've tested with FoF on, and with it off. The DPS increase from it is almost unnoticeable. The 3% buff monks got would be even less noticeable. Feel free to test yourselves and prove me wrong. If you can, I'll back out of the argument and admit I'm an idiot.

[RapBreon]

My mistake then, disregard that part of my post. I did not know that.

My point still stands though on the other parts though. 3% is quite an insignificant buff, and DRGs at launch were parsing higher than monks. The 3% buff is not going to seal that gap by itself. What's more likely at the moment is that dragoons are struggling to reach their damage ceiling currently, but it is higher.

I've tested with FoF on, and with it off. The DPS increase from it is almost unnoticeable. The 3% buff monks got would be even less noticeable. Feel free to test yourselves and prove me wrong. If you can, I'll back out of the argument and admit I'm an idiot.

If you consider ~30-40 DPS unnoticeable, then I guess we disagree at a fundamental level about what is and is not sizable. The gap will be wider (in absolute value; relative value is unaffected) or more narrow based on gear level.

The increase does exist - regardless of your perception. More likely there is a flaw in your testing methodology. Rotational errors, RnG and number of parse attempts mainly. Though it could be a perception issue, as in what you determine is a 'sizable increase' (my personal wager).

Additionally, the 5% from FoF is worth more than the 3% (besides the obvious 2% difference) increase on GL. FoF being multiplicative with all the other buffs; the 3% being added onto a 27% buff (ala diminishing returns). FoF should be adding anywhere from 40 to 80 DPS (depending on gear and mastery of the class). If that's unnoticeable to you, it is almost entirely a perception problem. Because I consider that hefty, not almost 'unnoticeable'.

I haven't looked into though; but I'm fairly certain MNKs scale better because of all their multiplicative buffs. I could be wrong on that point however. If this is the case its the gear upgrades inflating the 'perceived value' of the GL buff.

[jmdude]

that 3% buffs adds up as gear levels increase, GL3 scales exponentially with gear and dragoon doesn't have an answer to that. Also your argument of "well at launch MNKs were lower than other classes!"
Falls flat cause everyone was learning how to use their new skills and abilities so you see all kinds of parses from players with different skill caps,and also MNKs got some buffs so it's different now. Rav EX is also a bad fight to base off what dps has higher damage ceilings as it's mechanics favor some classes more than others and that's not the content where damage ceilings are being tested and pushed to the maximum.
Someone in my Raid group used to be a ninja and TA did help us a lot but once he geared his monk up and brought that instead, we've been able to kill oppressors faster and faster. 3 Melees all have their place and are just fine atm, MNK will keep scaling to be the highest single target dps, and the other melee dps are fine with their other ceilings because of the utility they bring.

[Shurrikhan]

I no longer mind Chakra as I used to, because I've found places in my rotation to use it in order to replace my DK or Twin literally within the last quarter second without losing the buff, losing no rotational dps and eventually getting enough Chakra for a spare Forbidden Chakra or, more often, Purification.

That said, I'll agree that all of the abilities are a tad disappointing. I really hate it when an ability is just obviously leagues better than a more specialized version of the same -- Elixir Field is exactly that compared to Howling Fist. Our "Fists of" are still painfully lackluster, and the personal-only benefits of Wind and Earth and the long animation lock of swapping effectively lock us into Fire especially now that we could be charging Chakra on the run. Meditation feels pretty clunky, though I can't think of better alternative systems off the top of my head, especially since it is technically combat-viable under low ping and certain skill speed plateaus. Form Shift feels clunky mostly just in that it consumes the full GCD, making it never usable in combat (except to save TP for performing solely Rockbuster and the occasional Twin in AoE spams), whereas it could otherwise have some rare rotational and GL-emergency benefits. Skill Speed is now a waste stat even at fairly high levels compared to Critical Strike because it (1) scales exponentially, (2) secondary stats have lesser effect in general by i200 at l60 than at, say, i85 at l50, [both near the end of first raid-tier], (3) it's just shittily scaled, and (4) still doesn't affect AA or oGCD damage [which should be its excuse for having great effects on high direct-damage classes like Monk, yet its poor even on its otherwise most ideal job].

[Adire]

snip

Yeah, we'll just have to disagree. I find 30-40 dps to be pretty small. And in my attempt, I was more along the lines of getting 10-20 dps increases if the numbers were coming in correctly.

I don't believe there's a flaw in the testing method I used. I did my rotation on a dummy 10 times, 5 with FoF, 5 without it. Each time the same thing occurred, no mistakes were made in my rotation on 4 of the attempts, had a minor disconnect on one however but the other times, the same thing occurred. DPS increase was small.

So yeah, if 5% isn't making a big difference, 3% certainly didn't.

It wasn't a perception issue for sure. If I got 40-80 dps from it, I'd consider that more adequate. If anything, the numbers coming were inaccurate.

Also your argument of "well at launch MNKs were lower than other classes!"
Falls flat cause everyone was learning how to use their new skills and abilities

This is completely false. At launch, of all the new skills jobs got, Monks had the easiest time of learning things. Because nothing fundamental really changed. One new oGCD, form shift, and chakra were the only "new skills" to learn that are useful the majority of the time, gcd rotation stayed exactly the same.

Ninja had armor crush, which considerably changed how mudras should be used, Dragoon had Blood of the Dragon, the RNG positionals, BLM had Enochian which considerably changed how it plays, WAR had stance dancing, etc.

So sorry, but your argument falls flat. If monks had the "learning new abilities" excuse, everyone else had it tenfold.

[trailmix9999]

It doesnt really matter what YOU think, the proof is on fflogs as i've provided above. So regardless if YOU think 3% or 5% is a buff or not, it obviously did something to make MNK go from 2nd or 3rd ST dps to top ST dps.