716 quality synthesis!

[Rhomagus]

Yeah, my highest quality ever is in the 680 range, with about 5 touch ups ... and it was NQ. /sigh

But in my case, it kind of makes sense. Because I'm a terrible crafter. Although the first item I ever made in the game was a rope belt, with just over 100 quality ... and it was a +2. So for about 5 minutes, I was convinced that I was the best crafter in the history of ever. But over the ensuing several months, I've proven that that's most definitely not true.

I did this same exact thing. ^^b

That's kind of a way to get you sucked in to crafting. It makes you think you have it figured out. Too bad that feeling never came back, except when I made my HQ Bronze Hauby set at 25ARM. Hauby +2, Coif +1, Sollerets +1, Reinforced Mitt gauntlets. That was satisfying.

[Amineri]

i agree with you, but if we go by the given synths showed for example the cobalt sabatons. in the cobalts all the parts themselves off the sabatons was replaced with cobalt ingots correct? using logic what would the parts on the r48 iron sabatons be replaced with? iron ingots. that's the reason i used iron ingots in my example.

it would take massive changes to each and every synth and the level for each and every item that is produced to have a more skillful way of crafting. i just don't see them putting that much time into downgrading the process to take the time for each and every item in the game.

I agree with you that it would be a ton of work for SE to rework all of the recipes, but that is exactly what they appear to be doing anyhow. Every single recipe in the game is being replaced, essentially. There are very few finished item synths that don't require parts.

None of us can know for certain just how drastic these changes are going to be, but we have hardly seen any new recipes at all in a quite a few months. The last big batch I can remember were the intermediate grade tools, and the coatees, etc, back around the December time-frame. In hindsight, it looks like the recipe team may have been doing nothing but reworking the entire recipe system this whole time. Maybe?

Regarding the r48 iron sabatons ... I'm not sure why there would be r48 iron sabatons and r48 cobalt sabatons both in the game. I'd guess that the iron sabaton recipe is going away, or the new version will create something in the rank 20 range.

Bronze : rank 1 to 10
Iron : rank 11 to 20
Steel : rank 21 to 30
??? (Darksteel?) : rank 31 to 40
Cobalt : rank 41 to 50

This is the material types I'd expect to see for base metals in armors, in the new recipes for 1.19.

personally i don't mind the rank 12 synth in a r50 recipe because of the fact you still have to take the time to get the hq part. i don't like the r40 synth in a r12 recipe because the crafter making the item should have the ability to make the parts for the item. if it's for another craft and they don't have it leveled then it should be close to their level so they can make a trade with a crafter on that other skill and both parties feel like they got something out of the deal.

i just feel the biggest issue people have is the luck factor being completely overbearing and i don't see anything in these changes that gets rid of that problem without giving another problem in its place. for example afterwards, if we are making iron ingots they said hq versions would be harder to get, will you still get 700 quality nq ingots? if not then it removes part of the issue, but by making the hardest part the individual low level synths the overall time is just easier.

By having low rank synths for ingredients into high rank synth items, you are essentially removing any degree of skill in making the ingredient. It is primarily a "spam careful synthesis" game over and over, using NQ materials. Under the condition that HQ ingredients ~> 100% HQ final item (for final item synths ONLY), all of the luck/skill is pushed to making the ingredients. In this case, it is completely necessary to have ingredient synths be of appropriate rank.

As to getting 700+ Quality NQ ingots. Yes, I believe that will still be the case, even when 1.20 comes around. Probability of getting HQ with 700+ Quality may be increased, though, since ingredient synths will likely by higher rank (i.e. getting &00+ Quality on a rank 45 synth ... very hard!). Yoshi-P said this:

Also, in the new specs, HQ items will only be created if every ingredient used is HQ. Obtaining HQ versions of the ingredients will require a mix of luck and skill. (We want to make sure that you will not experience a sense of futility when your synthesized item turns into NQ at the last moment.)

Essentially that all of the luck and skill are being front-loaded into the ingredients. He seems to use the word ingredient in a quite distinct manner from item, as well. I looked up the kanji that Bayohne translated as "ingredient", and it has more the flavor of "intermediate material". So, I'm thinking that item = finished, usable item. Ingredient = synthed, intermediate material.

i just would love to see a system put in place(like i posted earlier) that rewards people for high quality and putting effort into the crafting process. it's funny though on that post in that i have posted it a few times in the past few months and nobody ever comments on what is good or bad with the system i mentioned so i haven't been able to update it to where more people liked it.

The original quality to HQ system was more like this (back during closed beta). Higher quality had a much higher impact on probability of HQ (haha, HQ leads to HQ, go figure! xD ). However, higher quality also made the synthesis much much harder to complete. It didn't matter whether the quality came from starting materials or was gained during the synthesis. Under that system, achieving 716 quality would have been essentially impossible. This made HQ materials valued less, however, so the system was changed to make the starting quality from materials not count toward difficulty. This lead to "quality inflation", and the quality-to-HQ correlations ended up getting weakened.

This is, I think, the part of the system that needs to be fixed.

[Konachibi]

ok I'm all for long thread posts since I do them myself but...
seriously, that's so almost TL;DR even for me!

I will read it though...

[Konachibi]

Copper : rank 1 to 10
Bronze : rank 11 to 20
Iron : rank 21 to 30
Steel + Darksteel : rank 31 to 40
Cobalt : rank 41 to 50

This is the current metal rank requirements pre-1.19. I can't really imagine them changing that because there's nothing really wrong with it.

Plus it could mean moving all the metals around at mining points.

[Amineri]

ok I'm all for long thread posts since I do them myself but...
seriously, that's so almost TL;DR even for me!

I will read it though...

My apologies

It did get a little long, and I didn't spend as much time as I usually do reorganizing for readability. Also forgot that this is a discussion in the General Forum

[User201109011315]

... I still can't get over how they could put all the randomness into materials and then leave HQ finished items to be standard-bashed...

Wow...

???

Like it still astonishes me to this day. It's just such a bad decision. Lol.

Devs need to start playing the game more to learn how it actually works before fundamentally revising systems to be even worse than they are.

[Amineri]

Copper : rank 1 to 10
Bronze : rank 11 to 20
Iron : rank 21 to 30
Steel + Darksteel : rank 31 to 40
Cobalt : rank 41 to 50

This is the current metal rank requirements pre-1.19. I can't really imagine them changing that because there's nothing really wrong with it.

Well, except that iron keeps popping up in item like that Iron Dolabra (rank 42), Iron Sabatons (rank 48). Steel is popping up in items like Steel Scythe (rank 47). So, the base synthesis like ingots are in that rank range, but the finished items aren't. And matching up ingredient synth ranks to finish item synth/optimal rank (in both directions) is something that I think is being done.

Also, copper isn't used as a base metal for making armor and swords in Eorzea, apparently it's only used as a precious metal for making jewelry and the like. The only BSM synth I can recall using copper were fishhooks, which are made of both base metals and precious metals.

Back on topic, regarding quality, I don't think people will be reaching 700+, or even 450+ quality when making cobalt ingots or cobalt plates, for these rank 48 cobalt sabatons (or other cobalt armors). They can hit that still making Bronze ingots, or maybe iron ingots, but those will only be used for low rank items, or at least that's my guess.

No more Iron and Tin Nuggets going into final synth of rank 47 ARM hammer, no more brass nuggets used in final synth of jade crook. I mean, seriously, where is the skill or challenge in that?

[Konachibi]

One of the things that annoyed me in early crafting was that I noted down all the core materials and their resultant synthesis to make the materials to synthesize to make better gear to use for crafting. I'd go out and harvest ore, wood and the other components I'd need then begin turning those core materials into the next stage of materials. What annoyed me was the Rank 7 hammer I was trying to make, I could make the hammerhead at rank 10 blacksmith, but i couldn't make the hammer handle at rank 10 carpentry. When I checked the recipe, I had to be rank 24 Carpentry to make the handle.

So I went to the market wards to buy one instead only to find no one sold one of my optimal rank, and that all the ones nearest to my optimal were all extortionate prices, where as end-game rank 50 ones were the cheapest.

This is the problem with crafting, you can't make anything that would sell at low level because you don't have a high enough rank, and when you do have a high enough rank there's no point making them because they'll give you hardly any SP at all, and you can't sell them for crazy prices in the wards either because a new player wouldn't ever be able to afford more than about 5-10,000 gil at that kind of level.

I loved how many materials there were and how to get them, and I'm going to love trying to get their HQ version after 1.19, but they really did needed to fix the recipes to make it more fair for crafters just starting and even the prices out in the market wards on low level stuff by making it a little bit easier to make.

Easy to make = make lots = sell for cheaper price = better market ward prices for low level players = more low level players enjoying the game = less likely to leave.

That's how I'd calculate the logic for it anyways.

[Amineri]

This is the problem with crafting, you can't make anything that would sell at low level because you don't have a high enough rank, and when you do have a high enough rank there's no point making them because they'll give you hardly any SP at all, and you can't sell them for crazy prices in the wards either because a new player wouldn't ever be able to afford more than about 5-10,000 gil at that kind of level.

I believe that this sort of thing motivated several of the design decisions that SE made:

1) NQ items turn into materia -- gives reason for people to buy NQ items, hence they are on the market, for new players starting off to buy.

2) Removal of parts -- A hammer handle that is used to create only 1 item has too narrow a market segment to be marketable, so it's never available. New recipes will use ingredients with a broad enough range of scope to create enough demand that will some people will be tempted to sell them.

3) 100% HQ for finished item -- This gives a big boost to value of HQ ingredients, as they will be (post 1.20) a guaranteed portion of an HQ finished item. This may tempt more people to sell HQ ingredients, as there will now be a more profitable market.

[darkstarpoet1]

Well, except that iron keeps popping up in item like that Iron Dolabra (rank 42), Iron Sabatons (rank 48). Steel is popping up in items like Steel Scythe (rank 47). So, the base synthesis like ingots are in that rank range, but the finished items aren't. And matching up ingredient synth ranks to finish item synth/optimal rank (in both directions) is something that I think is being done.

Also, copper isn't used as a base metal for making armor and swords in Eorzea, apparently it's only used as a precious metal for making jewelry and the like. The only BSM synth I can recall using copper were fishhooks, which are made of both base metals and precious metals.

Back on topic, regarding quality, I don't think people will be reaching 700+, or even 450+ quality when making cobalt ingots or cobalt plates, for these rank 48 cobalt sabatons (or other cobalt armors). They can hit that still making Bronze ingots, or maybe iron ingots, but those will only be used for low rank items, or at least that's my guess.

No more Iron and Tin Nuggets going into final synth of rank 47 ARM hammer, no more brass nuggets used in final synth of jade crook. I mean, seriously, where is the skill or challenge in that?

there is no more skill used to get a hq nugget or ingot then than there will be afterwards. i may be mistaken, but i do not believe it will be the case that they redo every item and remove all items that are lower rank from mid to high rank synths. from the recipe examples they posted they will just be using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together.