Yoshi P's Stance on Pld

[Duelle]

Clemency is for the most part worthless as OT or MT since it can be interrupted and has a 3 second cast time. You CAN'T use it as off-tank because the healers will beat you every single time with their (1.9 second) cast times.

And here is the second part of hybrid off-healing: it's not there to be used all the time. Not to mention in scenarios with continuous damage it would still be useful because no healer is everywhere at once.

As I said, we could make it instant but you'd need a cooldown (30s sounds good). Could also halve the cast time while in Sword Oath (since it is something better put to use while off-tanking).

In savage content there is never NOT high damage and raid wide AoE. At times people will survive raid wide AoE with only hundreds of points of life (2k life if everything went somewhat according to plan). In content that doesn't hit like a pool noodle Paladin falls flat for every skill it brings with maybe the exception of Rage of Halone. A regen tick, I believe, should also activate Divine Veil but if used soon enough it doesn't really need changed for the activator. Cooldown is really this skill's weakness.

This is where I point to the healers, since raid healing is largely responsible for helping a raid recover from heavy raid-wide damage. Divine Veil in its current implementation is a nice addition to overall raid mitigation and certainly helps, but is not something that should be up every time. It's not that different from a cooldown that would essentially be AoE Testudo or that increases the raid's HP by a certain amount, and such skills would have cooldowns equally as long as DV, if not longer.

I can agree on regen ticks triggering Divine Veil, but at that point I would want the middleman removed. You hit the button, the raid gets a shield equal to 10% of your max HP.

Paladin stances punish you entirely too much in savage content. You lose a GCD, your combo, aggro, dps, and mp JUST for 20% better damage reduction or an extra auto attack each time you switch. At the end of an encounter you will have lost perhaps 5-7 GCD's if you switch twice for each tank buster....that WILL wipe the group. I can accept 3/4's of that punishment but not all of it. This isn't conscious design, it's flat out ignorance of combat flow at this point.

That's because the design is pointing to you staying in Shield Oath as PLD has been designed to and allow the DPS to carry the part of the raid's performance that is their responsibility. The tanks stay alive and mitigate, the healers heal damage taken, and the DPS carry the bulk of meeting DPS checks in content tuned around it. That's generally how these things work.

Non-sequitur: Feel free to say "well, WAR can get away with it, so PLD should too" and "the tank meta allows it with WAR so all three tanks should be like it", at which I will reply by saying "tank design points to tank stances being used to tank because that makes sense" and "the tank meta is wrong when it butts heads with design, which is what is currently happening".

In the struggle between design and the metagame, design should win since design is what shapes the metagame, not the other way around.

The penalties are there to discourage what some people have been trying to do with the job, because as I've said, the job is not designed around it. You're essentially trying to force a square peg into a round hole, and are blaming the peg for not being round enough.

Paladin has more than just some room for improvement. It's living in a two-room apartment when it needs a football stadium in terms of adjustments.

Part of the issues come from encounter design (savage tank busters being magic damage; and really, what the hell were they thinking aside from "let's make DRK look good"?), part from the design philosophy for tanks (defensive niches, certain utility skills being better than others, and trying to pass off DPS as utility), part from PLD's need for improvement.

If people were still discussing Shield Swipe's poor scaling, the fact PLD was more affected by the Determination nerf than the other tanks, the fact that defensive niches are a bad idea, and that utility incongruities between the three tanks are equally bad if not worse, that would be one thing. Those are actual problems the job has that need to be addressed.

I ask you to please, before you speak on behalf of why and where Paladin needs improvement, do savage content. You're most certainly not seeing what you need to.

I respect your request and understand why you say it, but I will reply as is customary of me in discussions like this: shit rolls downhill. Any change made for your sake will end up affecting people like me because that's how MMOs work. I also know I'm not alone in disliking the current tank meta and what it's done to the tank community as a whole, so if any change is going to be made to my favorite job, I'll support it if I agree with it or denounce it if I disagree with it.

[Shining_Tiger_Excalibur]

The reply would be too big to quote everything so I'll quickly make hasty responses.

To keep things short I'll say that half of the outrage people are seeing right now is due in part to exactly what you said: The skills Paladin has been given can't be used in most situations all the time....so why did they give them to us? Savage content requires 100% uptime with beneficial buffs/debuffs, it requires you to do more than your fair share of damage at bare minimum item level, it requires that you be able to increase the damage of other party members or at the very least overcome your own weaknesses over time. Paladin can arguably do none of these things. I can only think of a few abilities on other jobs that suffer from this but that's the difference, it's only one skill for them (Fists of Wind for Monk as an example,) whereas with Paladin it's the entirety of our skill-set. It's extremely obvious that the job was an afterthought and the developers did not, for one second, consider setting up some jobs for temporary success and success in the future. Warrior was set up for the future before Heavensward even happened and it's the same with Scholar, and the DPS roles were handled at least somewhat well. They were given skills that would immediately benefit them based on what they already had. The more and more I play Paladin and see what it lacks, the more and more I see it as the most selfish fucking tank I've ever seen in a game. Content will take longer, other people have to prop you up for success, other people have to be better geared just for you, you're required to take unnecessary risks to achieve the same numbers if you're at minimum item level, you cause people undue stress if you're trying to be world first/server first/FC first or if you're just trying to beat the content soon in general (some groups were on their 450th or greater attempt at just one Alexander Savage floor,) and you can't even help others by helping yourself. Paladins only survive, and that's it. If the job isn't re-worked it will undoubtedly be in the same position with the next expansion.

People are still discussing the issues of Shield Swipe, the removal of STR modifier on block, determination and the rest of that as well; in fact, they're also discussing things like how weapon delay has been normalized and is uniform on all three tank weapon choices now. The evidence is only building when it concerns just how bad this expansion was for a variety of reasons.

For those reading this I feel the need tell you that I'm not mad at any real person. I'm not to the point where I want to punch a hole in a wall or anything like that. My foul language is just because I'm a stern person and right now I'm just shaking my head. I'm irritated by how non-involved my job choice is, I'm irritated by the fact that if I wanted to switch jobs I'll need at least 3 months of learning and it'll radically change how my group acts, I'm irritated by the fact that I can feel how slow my job is in dungeons and raid content.


EDIT: I might actually step away from the forums for at least a day or two as to prevent any outrageous feelings from building up. I certainly know you guys aren't out to crush my balls or anything but I think if I stare at this screen long enough my brain might play tricks on me. See you nerds later and have a good day!

[NFaelivrin]

All the PLD salt is real, wow. It's almost like they were 100% mandatory for everything pre Heavens- oh. Right. Well let's just pretend that never happened.

By your logic Monks should've never been buffed since they were practically mandatory for early T13 progression but then again, spite-based balance might be one of the reasons none of the people suggesting it are game designers.

[Syzygian]

stuff

PLD/WAR stuff: agree.

Random paragraph about DRK at the end: I've yet to see anyone in this forum make an intelligent, thorough argument for DRK needing a "rework" beyond a few sentences about how they don't like Reprisal and parry procs. I'd concede a few small numerical adjustments but unlike PLD, DRK is functioning 100% as intended. It sounds like you just don't enjoy the job.

[Kiara]

The skills Paladin has been given can't be used in most situations all the time....so why did they give them to us? Savage content requires 100% uptime with beneficial buffs/debuffs, it requires you to do more than your fair share of damage at bare minimum item level, it requires that you be able to increase the damage of other party members or at the very least overcome your own weaknesses over time. Paladin can arguably do none of these things.

Content will take longer, other people have to prop you up for success, other people have to be better geared just for you, you're required to take unnecessary risks to achieve the same numbers if you're at minimum item level, you cause people undue stress if you're trying to be world first/server first/FC first or if you're just trying to beat the content soon in general (some groups were on their 450th or greater attempt at just one Alexander Savage floor,) and you can't even help others by helping yourself. Paladins only survive, and that's it. If the job isn't re-worked it will undoubtedly be in the same position with the next expansion.

Another great post Shining. Totally agree.

To: Dev Team,

There have been many posts on this subject, but a change has to be made. Unless the core End Game Boss Design is changed (so that it's NOT just a regularly timed Tank Buster attack (that all 3 Tanks can just activate a Defensive Cooldown every few minutes to mitigate)), there really is no need for a Tank (Paladin) that has higher survivability (and skewed towards Physical Defense mainly).

I sincerely hope there are meaningful changes that can alleviate the problem Paladins are facing by Patch 3.1.

[Isius]

Mmm, I have a thought, what would people think if Sheltron instead of giving you 100% chance to block on one physical attack. It would instead be more as a shield a Paladin can apply to itself, like what Divine Veil does, but only applies to a Paladin? How well will that work? I'm just not really a fan of tanks being seperated by how well they can mitigation different types of dmg, PLD/DRK, similiar thing can be done to Drk. I personally feel as the current system stands tanking dmg as a tank will remain as a joke throughtout future patches.

Also thoughts about Clemancy instead of being like a Cure is instead a HoT, Regen?

Thoughts?

[Sapphidia]

I actually prefer Sheltron as a guaranteed block because of its interaction with Shield Swipe - it lets you force a block, and thus guarantees a shield swipe is available to use on demand. That's good synergy.

The problem is Shield Swipe is poop. I really don't feel Paladin needs ANY major mechanical changes or functionality changes, it just needs some numbers tweaking, and I think Shield Swipe is the place to do it. Hugely buffing Shield Swipe's threat and potency (maybe from 210/x3 to 260/x5 so it becomes more like a Halone than a Savage) would solve a lot of PLD issues, and if Shield Swipe DOES get a buff then Sheltron will be more important.

I do agree clemency and divine veil are situational but the concept is okay. I think Divine Veil is fine but just gets a bad rap because the class as a whole is fairly misfunctional. If Paladins did competitive dps/threat then noone would mind that Divine Veil, Cover and Clemency were only occasional uses. Admittedly I wouldnt say no to something like Shield Oath coming with a perma-Surecast effect though so we can cast clemency and stoneskin without interruption, and a radius increase on Divine Veil, but the functionality is fine.

But in general, I think the paladin class is fine in terms of -what- each skill does and how they work, it's just the numbers are off. Shield Swipe is the major offender because that button is literally a DPS -and- threat loss to press at any time, it purely "saves tp" whilst lowering output. It -needs- a boost.

[ArdorGrey]

snip

I agree Sheltron is awesome in theory and that it fails because shield swipe is terrible. Outside of a raw potency/aggro buff I could also see some sort of debuff becoming tied to it instead of raw potency buffs. Whatever they do, shield swipes should be something that a player is *excited* to see proc, not something you just remove from your bar.

Divine veil is a real gray area, somewhat in line with your thoughts I just don't feel like I can comment on how good or bad it is atm. As both a dedicated tank and a dedicated teambuilding theorycrafter, the skills just seems way too situational to be utilized in serious content unless the pld itself and their healers have intimate knowledge of how healers handle a specific encounter. But I wholeheartedly agree with people who say clemency needs a reduction in cast time. The prohibitive mp cost on a class that doesn't do much with mp is fine, especially with Shelltron and riot blade restoring mp. The problem with the skill is not only is the actual cast time so long that casters can beat you to the punch, and that it's too slow to react to emergency heals(the only heals where a healer should need help) but also that with a 3 second cast time it not only costs a low dps class in a high dps meta a full gcd, it also clips into their second gcd. No matter how you slice it that isn't situational design, that's bad design. does it need to be an instant cast? no. does the entire class need a radical overhaul? No, and I can't believe anyone who thinks so has actual savage experience themselves- or at least not savage experience that they have condisered in a level headed manner.

You also don't specifically mention it here but I agree with your past sentiments that shield oath is far too punishing in the games current setup. warrior is the most comfortable tank in dps stance and can use unchained to ignore tank stance penalties for short periods of time. Dark knight is built to use darkness full time. It isn't a bonus, it's a mandatory aspect of learning the class, so effectively their tank stance penalty is far less than either other tank. compile this with also having slightly subpar dps out of shield oath and using tank stance at all is far more punishing on pld than either other tank.

I can certainly see how someone new to savage and still learning it did poorly on paladin, and then switched to a more favorable class which, combined with a better mastery of the content contributed to them thinking "wow! paladin literally can't do anything and needs a complete rebuild!"

Fixing a few very problematic skills will do wonders for the class, it still has a lot of stupidly potent defensive options available that can be used to mitigate massive busters comfortably or to assuage healer stress while pushing dps stance depending on how comfortable the player and their healer are. people who think the class needs a massive overhaul to be remotely overhaul have completely tunnelvisioned on their favorite class and lost perspective, much the loldrgs of old dying to aoes during animation locks.

Anyhoo, your posts are always intelligently elaborated on and refreshingly free of melodrama, I apologize if I extrapolated on a few points to address massive issues with other posters skewed perceptions. (seriously though, clemency needs reworking)

[Isius]

Mmm, I actually don't like Sheltron as it is now. It's a unbalanced tank move like Dark Mind on Dark Knight. I don't want tanking in this game to be where one tank is heavily favored in each raid tier over another because of these moves. But that is just my line of thinking, which idk feels mixed among the player base, but you are right Shield Swipe is trash. So either it needs to get buff so it does have good synergy with Sheltron, but currently Shield Swipe as you said a poop skill, not worth using, plus having passive shield block procs, and Bulwark I think is enough for Shield Swipe procs anyways, but that is just me.

My line of thinking was like I said to have Sheltron as a type of shield, let's just say gives you 10% more hp on top of your own till it is depleted from incoming dmg, similar to Divine Veil, but only for the PLD. Wouldn't this effect act like a buffer so you could cast spells much easier, like Clemancy/Stoneskin if mting? So idea is to regen mp, and buffer yourself with Sheltron so you could cast a spell.

My clemancy idea to be a regen versus a cure is me just trying to think of a way a PLD, SE's quote in quote defensive tank, to be what SE wants it to be but still be able contribute to raid defensively, and offensively...while still having less dps then the other tanks. If Clemancy was a regen I could either cast it on myself or others to help neutralize fluff dmg more to make up for PLD lower dps. If it is a regen I would not have to worry about being beat out by a healer too. This change could either A. Make it were healers in raids can dps more. B. Make it were the other tank can freely dps more in dps mode. C. Make it were the PLD can be in DPS Mode more from the regen acting like any other regen ingame and increases your enimty too. I really don't know if that enimty would be enough, but I am just throwing things out there like my whole idea or D. Make it easier to cast Stoneskin before tankbusters if tanking. But yeah, I am kinda looking for a way for PLD spells to become part of a PLDs rotation. And yes I know dps matters a ton in current endgame content. But idk it would make PLD feel different from other tanks if they were able to cast their spells more and does become part of thier rotation, so Paladin can have a more unique tanking style.

I know everything I said is very questionable, and I do realize the Sheltron changes I am talking about is a nerf to incoming physical tank busters, just I want all tank be able to eat dmg around the same, so we don't get bring this tank only because they are better in physical/magical dmg, mindset. But I think the changes I am suggesting would be a overall buff to PLD defesives, ability to increase groups dps, and supportive capabilities. But /shrugs I could be wrong too since I don't run numbers, and using it in practice is the only way to confirm this anyways.

Idk just some ideas I am throwing out there to see what people think.

But with all this said enimty changes to Rage of Halone combo, and buffing Shield Swipe would be enough for me, and would help out a lot. But I don't see those changes helping PLD over the long run in future 3.x. content, but who knows I might be very wrong. All we can do is sit here, and wait to see what SE does to PLD, and how they develope thier future content.

[rawker]

You talk as if Sheltron blocks 100% of any incoming damage when on fact, just blocks a portion of incoming physical damage. Besides, it's an incentive to actually use low block rate, high block strength shields to make them more reliable in mitigation. The only fix i could think of to Sheltron is for it to not trigger on normal attacks though A3S would want to have a word with me to not underestimate "fluff" damage esp with 3 or more stacks of blunt resistance debuff. It's such a beautiful defensive cooldown. Now if it restores 50 TP on top of the MP regen....