Lets nerf WAR :D

[Freyyy]

DRK can actually outperform WAR in MT DPS with proper stance dancing and the slashing debuff, albeit not by much

I pretty much agree with all you said but I'll just add that if tanking a boss that doesn't let you get out of tanking stance much, DRK is pretty far ahead of WAR in terms of MT DPS. It's kinda impressive. Tho it highly depends on parry and Low Blows RNG, but even with bad luck it's still insanely high for a MT.

I still find something pretty conflicting about DRK, the fact that it's that highly parry-related while being the best magical tank. When fighting an enemy which hits only with magic you have no Reprisal nor Low Blow procs. Not that it's a problem (seriously, you don't even need Reprisal when tanking a magic boss, but it's still a DPS loss to not have it bruh) but it seems like the developpers didn't put all of their thoughts into that precise thing.

[Syzygian]

I pretty much agree with all you said but I'll just add that if tanking a boss that doesn't let you get out of tanking stance much, DRK is pretty far ahead of WAR in terms of MT DPS. It's kinda impressive. Tho it highly depends on parry and Low Blows RNG, but even with bad luck it's still insanely high for a MT. I still find something pretty conflicting about DRK, the fact that it's that highly parry-related while being the best magical tank. When fighting an enemy which hits only with magic you have no Reprisal nor Low Blow procs. Not that it's a problem (seriously, you don't even need Reprisal when tanking a magic boss, but it's still a DPS loss to not have it bruh) but it seems like the developpers didn't put all of their thoughts into that precise thing.

Yeah about the MT DPS, not a lot of people realize that. That's why I hate it when people say DRK is busted or needs crazy buffs like PLD. In a DRK/WAR or DRK/PLD composition no matter what raid dps will always be highest when the DRK MTs.

I see where you're coming from with the parry focus + magic thing. But I feel like between their other CDs and Dark Dance, they do alright. I went into A2S with everyone telling me DRK's are like wet paper bags in there, it really wasn't that bad. I feel like PLD's shield is only ever so slightly ahead, other than Bulwark and Sheltron its not as though they have anything DRK doesn't. And no tank has as legitimate, physical version of Dark Mind.

One other thing on this topic is how people are still saying Foresight is trash. 20% of our defense stat now is such a huge number compared to what it was pre-HW. People forget it scales with gear. I still wouldn't pop it alone when tanking anything that deals meaningful damage but its certainly not as garbage as it is still as ubiquitously thought to be. Honestly, on the whole in this game physical damage just straight-up is not as threatening as magic damage.

I think DRK's physical mitigation only seems so small because of scenarios like for instance, popping DA DM and Shadow Wall against magic tank busters and if you get crit with an Adlo take 0 damage. It has the -necessary- mitigation to survive high physical damage, just nothing so over the top. TBs are crazy weak in this current meta. Half the time, I'm eating them without an Adlo or SS or Virus, whereas I remember in t13 people had rotations set up so you would have almost all of those things plus all your cooldowns every time, and nowadays, half the time healers don't even bother. I think this also contributes to tanking things outside of tank stance being more commonplace than ever, as exponentially more damage is being dealt over the course of the fight through other sources than through TBs (don't even get me started on A3S autoattacks), even more so now than compared to 2.x, thus healers have less room than ever to DPS and tanks have less reason to stay in tank stance due to the healer focus already being so high on incoming damage.

[SpookyGhost]

"Tanking in tank stance" is kind of the key to having more damage as DRK than WAR as MT - the problem is that rarely will you stay in said tank stance past a few GCDs, and as WAR you only go back in it when Unchained is up... so WAR's MT DPS currently is only slightly behind it's OT DPS unless you have a NIN (in which case you never even need to be in tank stance). WAR's biggest problem as MT is losing IB, whereas PLD keeps Sheltron and DRK keeps DA + DM - if none of these are necessary then you'd want WAR to MT to optimize tank DPS (also lets the PLD or DRK never have to press their enmity combo in their opener which is A+). You can see this in fights like A4S, where it's optimal for the WAR to pull but for the DRK to tank last phase. I think DRK's damage is fine, though, just that WAR edges it out in that regard since it's... supposed to.

I also think DRK's kit is actually pretty well balanced now - the only big problem it has is physical hits that happen in quick succession. This was made obvious by Ravana EX where a DRK would have to split the damage with the group if solo tanking, whereas a WAR/PLD wouldn't. If we see more physical fights with tank busters closer together, then DRK will be in trouble - until then, however, it's CD kit is fine. Even for physical fights, it essentially has the same kit that PLD had and PLD did perfectly fine. I think Dark Dance is a bit awkward as a CD since it's main purpose is to force proc Reprisal... but that really just seems like clunky design. That's my only real issue with DRK atm though, I don't really know what fights we'll have in the future so I can't say for sure that DRK doesn't need adjustments but as it is DRK is fine.

[Syzygian]

"Tanking in tank stance" is kind of the key to having more damage as DRK than WAR as MT - the problem is that rarely will you stay in said tank stance past a few GCDs, and as WAR you only go back in it when Unchained is up... so WAR's MT DPS currently is only slightly behind it's OT DPS unless you have a NIN (in which case you never even need to be in tank stance). WAR's biggest problem as MT is losing IB, whereas PLD keeps Sheltron and DRK keeps DA + DM - if none of these are necessary then you'd want WAR to MT to optimize tank DPS (also lets the PLD or DRK never have to press their enmity combo in their opener which is A+). You can see this in fights like A4S, where it's optimal for the WAR to pull but for the DRK to tank last phase. I think DRK's damage is fine, though, just that WAR edges it out in that regard since it's... supposed to.

Sort of true, but if you assume a stance dancing WAR you can assume DRK is doing the same, and DRK actually does more DPS while tanking than while not tanking, assuming Grit is off either way, while with WAR there's almost no difference, ergo, I'd still go with the WAR OT.

[SpookyGhost]

It largely depends on how many Power Slashes you need to do, though in terms of max deeps I think that WAR pulling until pacified then swapping would garner you a larger aggro lead and allow for more deeps overall. Parry procing Low Blow is also dependent on the DRK being able to parry at all, so in fights like A4S DRK doesn't really get any +DPS from MTing - however, in fights like A3S, they do. So I guess it's largely a fight-to-fight thing, but regardless DRK is in a fine position DPS-wise.

[Hengen_Kaosu]

The basis of your argument is flawed: the reason for the pld/war drk/war pairing is because WAR was designed as a great OT class, and pld/drk were designed as MT classes. It isn't a matter of 3 tanks competing for 2 slots, it's 2 MT classes competing for a MT slot, and one OT class given the OT slot. By the same logic I could call BRD and MCN overpowered. What will eventually balance it out, is when a 2nd offtank comes in (bluemage please? this would make me love tanking). That all being said, Optimal class comp is not needed, and hasn't been needed for weeks at this point, if you're not going for server firsts, go ahead and go PLD/DRK or even PLD/PLD.

Quick edit inb4 someone comments about my levels: the reason my PLD is 56 is because I was leveling it first, I like it better, but another in my group already had 60 in it, and his WAR was far behind; I trained my war up to fill the OT slot for my static. Also: the MT also leveled DRK, we couldn't pass with him on it, so we went back to PLD/WAR, I would still say DRK is the black sheep for many (and not PLD).

[Donjo]

The basis of your argument is flawed: the reason for the pld/war drk/war pairing is because WAR was designed as a great OT class, and pld/drk were designed as MT classes...

People keep saying this. That Paladin is supposed to be a MT. I'm actually tempted to look at their utility and argue the opposite. WAR and DRK have utility that directly target and debuff individual enemies. WAR doesn't much care where it is, but DRK has a utility debuff that requires MT status to successfully execute. Therefore, they're more suited to getting hit in the face. Paladin, on the other hand, has all of these little abilities that(with the exception of Halone) directly target either themselves or other party members to provide some sort of benefit.

As a MT

- Spells are difficult to cast without interruption
- Rarely close enough to a party member to properly be in Cover range without moving/turning the boss
- On the other side of the boss in comparison to other party members, making Divine Veil use questionable
- Forced to use Halone combo. For Paladin, using the hate combo incurs a larger DPS loss than the other two.

As an OT

- Spells can be cast with minimal fear of interruption
- It is always safe to approach a party member to use Cover
- On the side of the boss where everybody else is, making Divine Veil use easier
- Can freely use Royal Authority, bringing overall damage closer in line to everyone else

Paladin can only get the most out of its kit if it is being OT. The moral of the story here is that people should probably stop pidgeonholing Warrior into OT so hard and toss Paladin in there more often. In PLD/WAR, WAR is ideal MT. In DRK/WAR, DRK is ideal MT. in DRK/PLD, DRK is ideal MT. The reign of the great and venerable Paladin MT has ended.

[Kaisersoke]

Update: think what you will and form your own opinions, but on top of a warrior soloing titan, a warrior has now solod Levi Ex.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=es55PSJDyf8

[SpookyGhost]

Update: think what you will and form your own opinions, but on top of a warrior soloing titan, a warrior has now solod Levi Ex.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=es55PSJDyf8

I feel like, for some reason, you're making a connection here. Maybe this is just a stretch, maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but posting a video of a job soloing content in a thread titled "Let's nerf WAR"... kinda seems like you're implying that somehow, some way, soloing old content is relevant to lvl 60 party content. Call me crazy, I know!

[Freyyy]

The basis of your argument is flawed: the reason for the pld/war drk/war pairing is because WAR was designed as a great OT class, and pld/drk were designed as MT classes.

Yeah and that's exactly why Yoshi P already said numerous times that he wants all tanks to be as viable as the others in both MT and OT spots.

No, tanks in this game aren't designed to be OT or MT. Devs want them to be able to do both, but they fail to properly balance them. That's all.