The issue nobody wants to address

[Hayward]

I really hate to say it, but I have to think that most of the ones opposing it, are the ones who would be shown to be detriments to a party.

I'm sorry, but this trope has to go. Again, this talking point functions on a false dichotomy that fails to take into consideration people who know their job, execute their rotations when the situation allows them to do so, and use abilities in a timely fashion, but have no desire to focus on their numbers more than necessary. It also fails to take into account those of us who have no objection (let me repeat that: No Objection) to parsers that show one's own numbers in an accurate fashion (i.e. no slurring over DoT numbers, pet damage, etc.). Something like that would certainly help those of us who wouldn't mind tinkering with our rotations or finding ways to work around anti-mage mechanics (but that's a different subject altogether).

[Whiteroom]

I'm sorry, but this trope has to go. Again, this talking point functions on a false dichotomy that fails to take into consideration people who know their job, execute their rotations when the situation allows them to do so, and use abilities in a timely fashion, but have no desire to focus on their numbers more than necessary. It also fails to take into account those of us who have no objection (let me repeat that: No Objection) to parsers that show one's own numbers in an accurate fashion (i.e. no slurring over DoT numbers, pet damage, etc.). .

Thats why I said most, as well as "I have to think". And I do believe it to be true. The arguments for parsers far outweigh the ones against. The only way it would be bad if is if it were a parser with little thought or work put into it.

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags...

This statement has been shown to be false in many parser threads.

Also, it does not make you free to be an idiot to people, they won't be removing the report feature, it would just mean that a number could be put to the reason you remove someone, not that you are free to harass other players.

[Welsper59]

Thats why I said most, as well as "I have to think". And I do believe it to be true. The arguments for parsers far outweigh the ones against. The only way it would be bad if is if it were a parser with little thought or work put into it.

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags that, I guarantee, does come about when people are able to freely flex their e-peen. I do state the guarantee with emphasis because there has been zero evidence at any point in more than the last decade to show that history will not repeat itself within an MMORPG environment lol. We, the player base, are absolute idiots when we're given anything to use at our disposal to emphasize competition (even against those who have no idea they're apparently competing). If the devs don't want to deal with it, they don't have to, and thus they're not officially in the game. That argument alone trumps all others lol.

The fact they are aware of it and are okay with it (off the record) is just a means to say "you are free to use them, but don't be an idiot". Whereas, were it to be official, you could be that idiot without concern and the devs will have to throw more problems onto the table to be looked at. I like parsers, and admittedly I use it myself from time to time, but it's seriously not as big of a deal as people make it out to be with how we are now. Most people for it are acting as though an official "ok" or removal of it from ToS is suddenly going to make the whole game change for the better in some huge completely game changing way lol. That is literally impossible to happen because it already exists. Nothing changes in a meaningful way.

People are blending in two arguments and failing miserably by doing so. There's the argument for their absolute approval to use, which is the most popular one, and the argument for their official creation. The latter is the only one that has weight, given the situation and unofficial acknowledgment for the former. An official creation would directly benefit console users... that's pretty much it, as far as what we have right now. That argument however gets overshadowed by the want for them to officially declare it all right to use. Paying attention to parsers would still be optional though, just like how paying attention to your own abilities is! Funny how all of that still comes together for ways to potentially fail lol.

[RickXRolled]

What people fail to realize is that there is already allot of people who use parsers.
They simply don't know because the people parsing usually don't say/do anything.
The only times they find out players are parsing is when one person links it in chat or starts to attack people.
Since they never notice any parsing players, except when it is used to harass, they believe the only players parsing are evil douchebags.

TLDR;
People only see negative parser use and never know of any positives.

[Aniforani]

Lets skip some steps and get to where we need to be.Why not give an option to turn on a setting that lets the game preform these rotation of abilities and skills for us like auto attacks. That way no one can parse below perfection, and all that will matter is what gear we have. Is that the goal we are looking for? Perhaps the game can just look at our stats and abilities before the dungeon and based on them give a countdown timer till we auto win. I mean working alongside people of various skill levels is so annoying. Variations in completion time throw off my day.
This is an extreme of what is being asked, but it would solve the problems. Would you mind if the other person was even at the keyboard if it gave you a faster win?

[Malevicton]

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags

Not really, though. Devs have asked people not to use them for harassment, but they've never really said that they would cause more - that's just something the community decided. This source is a bit old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WX...outu.be&t=6m5s) but he never even mentions harassment as one of the reasons, let alone the foremost. Here's another interview (http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/) where yoshi's asked about it and never mentions harassment in a 3 paragraph answer. If your argument is that it's a dev position, then you should really have a source. In this case, that's not the dev position, it's a community position.

I know everyone says it's a dev position, but it's really bugging me because it's really not true at all. After the first ZAM interview where he laid down fight club rules, everyone started saying stuff like "so basically as long as you don't use it to harass people, no one will know." Which is true. But that was just because harassment would break the fight club rules; harassment itself was never the focus until the community made it that way. Harassment being in any way relevant to parsers was a conclusion drawn by the community via a series of implications, none of which are really tied to any dev statement.

At this point everyone just assumes it's true because so many people say it, and people say it because they assume it's true, and they assume it's true... ad infinitum. That argument might trump all others if it were true, but it's not.

As for your personal opinions about it... where are you gathering this evidence? Everything I've seen and experienced personally (stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas) suggests the opposite. If you're going to appeal to history, can you find any examples? I agree that there's no reason to think history wouldn't repeat itself, but we apparently have very different ideas as to what that means.

[Welsper59]

Not really, though. Devs have asked people not to use them for harassment, but they've never really said that they would cause more - that's just something the community decided. This source is a bit old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WX...outu.be&t=6m5s) but he never even mentions harassment as one of the reasons, let alone the foremost. Here's another interview (http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/) where yoshi's asked about it and never mentions harassment in a 3 paragraph answer. If your argument is that it's a dev position, then you should really have a source. In this case, that's not the dev position, it's a community position.

I know everyone says it's a dev position, but it's really bugging me because it's really not true at all. After the first ZAM interview where he laid down fight club rules, everyone started saying stuff like "so basically as long as you don't use it to harass people, no one will know." Which is true. But that was just because harassment would break the fight club rules; harassment itself was never the focus until the community made it that way. Harassment being in any way relevant to parsers was a conclusion drawn by the community via a series of implications, none of which are really tied to any dev statement.

At this point everyone just assumes it's true because so many people say it, and people say it because they assume it's true, and they assume it's true... ad infinitum. That argument might trump all others if it were true, but it's not.

As for your personal opinions about it... where are you gathering this evidence? Everything I've seen and experienced personally (stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas) suggests the opposite. If you're going to appeal to history, can you find any examples? I agree that there's no reason to think history wouldn't repeat itself, but we apparently have very different ideas as to what that means.

Apathy doesn't exactly exist to the same degree here when it comes to reliance on DPS. I've commented about this before in how DPS in WoW is not the same as DPS here. Combat mechanics in FFXIV rely far more upon DPS (or players in general) working together to be capable of proper output, even in normal dungeons. This has not existed in WoW, outside of very specifically intended difficult content (like challenge dungeons), but it does here. A single well geared player, playing decently or to the best of their ability, can output three or more times the output of a fresh player trying their rotation to the best possible way. You can't do that here. You'd be lucky to even reach double the numbers. Meaning, your presence is far more noticeable than it is in WoW. The point of that video was how content, and the ease of being a single player in a far larger group of the same role in a raid, removes the need to learn to progress. You get what you want for absolutely no effort. It's like how people would just AFK in vanilla raids like MC. 40 people = more opportunity to do absolutely nothing because the fights are hard to balance out against so many variables.

Regarding the evidence, uhmm... have you ever played games with parsers and paid attention to group chats or shouts? Have you ever played WoW back in the day? Have you ever paid attention to the constant bickering that happens even here in-game about performance? It doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly does happen. That alone could possibly be reason enough for the devs here to not want it beyond what we currently have.

As for the parsers thing, you have to sort of think outside of what's laid out in front of you when it's something vague. When they're saying to not use the tools improperly, what else do you think they're referring to among the player base? "We're all adults here" kinda stems from immaturity being a concern. He may not have literally said the harassment bit, but it's obviously implied. You can't just take something vague and leave it be. There's meaning behind words, including vague ones. Suggestive evidence often supports opinions and perspectives. It's pretty obvious what he meant by that. Take for example someone saying something is "bad". Okay... it's bad. Do you just end it there? Should a dev just think "Oh, it's bad. Time to start over"? No! Why does someone think it's bad, what can be changed if found to be the common reaction, etc.

Harassment is not a concept derived simply because the community thought it's a problem. It's a problem that inevitably exists, whether or not you see it firsthand. If you've ever been in charge of a project that goes live to people other than yourself, you have to contemplate many things. You have to find ways to combat wrongdoings, for example. You have to think how something may be manipulable, if that's a problem. This is why things like the ToS exists. It's the preemptively lay out the rules that one cannot do certain things. It doesn't matter if these things happened already, it's to help prevent them from happening at all and to protect the company from lawsuit.

I mean, again, think about it. What else could possibly be meant by that statement when you put all the pieces together? His final words of "minna wa otona nandakara" or "we're all adults" kinda leads one to think something very specific about it.

[Malevicton]

He wasn't particularly subtle about the fight club rules. If he wanted to say something about harassment he'd say it. Even assuming that's not the case, drawing an implication is very very different from having an official dev source. "We're all adults" could be referring to any number of things if we really wanna start going down that rabbit hole.

I'd personally go with "We're all adults here" being generally used to be intentionally vague. Most of the times that that phrase is used it's meant to be a call for general blanket maturity.

Regarding the evidence, uhmm... have you ever played games with parsers and paid attention to group chats or shouts? Have you ever played WoW back in the day? Have you ever paid attention to the constant bickering that happens even here in-game about performance? It doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly does happen. That alone could possibly be reason enough for the devs here to not want it beyond what we currently have.

Yes I have, and our experiences are apparently very different. That last sentence is another good example of people putting words into the dev's mouths to suit their own arguments. If your position is going to be based on the devs, then you need a source or a quote or something. Saying that they may possibly think something because of how you think things work is not how dev sources work.

Edit: End of the day I don't really care how people feel about parsing, my point is just this: if you wanna say "I feel [such and such] about [whatever topic]" then go ahead. But if you're going to say "the devs feel [such and such] about [whatever topic]" then you need a source. Otherwise you're just making up arguments, which is usually a sign that you don't have a legitimate argument.

[Welsper59]

I'd personally go with "We're all adults here" being generally used to be intentionally vague. Most of the times that that phrase is used it's meant to be a call for general blanket maturity.

Exactly. They want people to be mature about it. Why even say that at all though? It's not like he says that after every interview or statement. "Please look forward to it. We're all adults here." lol. So there must be some reason that it's suddenly said. What sort of problems might occur due to possible immaturity when it comes to parsers? You have to keep going with your thoughts. As I implied, it doesn't just end, so you kind of have to think for yourself, if not for the obvious reason of not doing something obviously bad. The possibilities are endless, but they're essentially all in the same category of problems - "Things they don't want to have to deal with". That is a very general statement and encompasses every single annoyance or negative outcome of development (or anyone alive, really). I guarantee that's an underlying reason why, if not just for personal reasons. Who actually wants to deal with problems that come from other people being stupid? lol.

Having a direct source for something vague to be defined is impossible. That's why we draw logical conclusions. Your outlook is along the lines of "Well they didn't state this specific exploit/cheat, so it should be perfectly fine". You need it written in words specifically, despite obvious official implications, to believe something that is rather logical and straightforward. It's the same sort of reasoning that comes from people trying to think they're tricking the system for doing something bad (not accusing you of this, obviously). This is not a courtroom. This is not an audit report. There is no multi-million/billion dollar contract or company on the line. It's just a guy addressing people about being civil with each other when it comes to using something they don't officially approve of.

[Colorful]

Regarding the evidence, uhmm... have you ever played games with parsers and paid attention to group chats or shouts? Have you ever played WoW back in the day? Have you ever paid attention to the constant bickering that happens even here in-game about performance? It doesn't happen all the time, but it certainly does happen. That alone could possibly be reason enough for the devs here to not want it beyond what we currently have.

I know your question wasn't targeted at me but I feel like answering it regardless. I have played several games with DPS metres, including WoW way back when. I did experience threats to the point of someone saying they were going to hunt me down, some people saying I should kill myself, etc. I don't think the 13 year old me took that very well haha, but regardless I moved on with my life and that actually got me to look into what I was doing wrong. Not to mention they were very few and far between, other than when I first rolled a Holy Paladin and didn't heal in the dungeon because I didn't know I was supposed to. I had no idea what I was doing, I was standing in every fire possible, but eventually due to people yelling at me, I learned to improve. This has toned down significantly, the last time I played WoW and intentionally tried doing the least amount of DPS possible in a leveling dungeon to see if the community was as toxic as everyone on the WoW forums was spouting, nothing. Nobody gave a rat's ass because it was getting done.

I guess what I'm trying to say, people are going to be rotten about it and that's unavoidable, but it does come with its benefits. I think today's crowd is far too sensitive to big bad mean words said over the internet, but it gives people room to improve. I'd likely still be clicking a 3 button rotation thinking I'm doing fun, when really I'm not. It's not bad to give people that push, right now I'm too afraid of pointing out someone's poor DPS and giving them tips if they're a Ninja due to the fear that I'll get reported and smacked with a temporary ban.

I'm not making this look good for pro-parser side, am I?