The issue nobody wants to address

[dank1]

A few people seem to miss the fact that a dead dps does no dps, obviously it is implied that if a dps is at the top of the list they are also living/executing the mechanics needed in the run.
So yes 9/10 times a parser is also good at letting you know that player's situational awareness is on point.

On a side note any personal attacks further reinforce the fact that people for whatever reason don't want to/care to improve, the whole "stressing yourself out more isn't fun" argument doesn't make sense to me, if you're pressing a button once every 2.5 secs to execute a skill you're still pressing a button regardless why not press the correct button if you can and do the proper rotation?
It seems no one wants to flat out admit it's to an issue with willing to do it and instead resort to telling me to re-asses my life choices? Fyi you don't know anything about me and I don't know anything about you all I do know is that if you are doing a dungeon or a run of whatever you're doing it to progress/clear the content and that's all that matters so if you have the ability to (whether it's physically/mentally) why not do it?
Still haven't heard a good argument in regards to why not. Unless it's flat out you just dont want to due to laziness lol which in that case then I have nothing else to debate but please don't get defensive and resort to personal attacks

[Colorful]

A few people seem to miss the fact that a dead dps does no dps, obviously it is implied that if a dps is at the top of the list they are also living/executing the mechanics needed in the run.
So yes 9/10 times a parser is also good at letting you know that player's situational awareness is on point

It also shows stats like damage taken, so you'll know if they're standing in the fire so to speak. Amazing tool really, shame so many people are against it.

[Whiteroom]

It also shows stats like damage taken, so you'll know if they're standing in the fire so to speak. Amazing tool really, shame so many people are against it.

I really hate to say it, but I have to think that most of the ones opposing it, are the ones who would be shown to be detriments to a party.

They can be used badly by some people of course. But anything can. I love when someone I know is running one and constantly pester them for my numbers. It has to be annoying for them. It gets annoying for me that I have to ask. But even then, I'm only getting the bare dps numbers, as asking everything would be too much. to be able to see using what cool downs when absolutely minimized my damage intake as tank while dps was high would be great.

[Hayward]

I really hate to say it, but I have to think that most of the ones opposing it, are the ones who would be shown to be detriments to a party.

I'm sorry, but this trope has to go. Again, this talking point functions on a false dichotomy that fails to take into consideration people who know their job, execute their rotations when the situation allows them to do so, and use abilities in a timely fashion, but have no desire to focus on their numbers more than necessary. It also fails to take into account those of us who have no objection (let me repeat that: No Objection) to parsers that show one's own numbers in an accurate fashion (i.e. no slurring over DoT numbers, pet damage, etc.). Something like that would certainly help those of us who wouldn't mind tinkering with our rotations or finding ways to work around anti-mage mechanics (but that's a different subject altogether).

[Whiteroom]

I'm sorry, but this trope has to go. Again, this talking point functions on a false dichotomy that fails to take into consideration people who know their job, execute their rotations when the situation allows them to do so, and use abilities in a timely fashion, but have no desire to focus on their numbers more than necessary. It also fails to take into account those of us who have no objection (let me repeat that: No Objection) to parsers that show one's own numbers in an accurate fashion (i.e. no slurring over DoT numbers, pet damage, etc.). .

Thats why I said most, as well as "I have to think". And I do believe it to be true. The arguments for parsers far outweigh the ones against. The only way it would be bad if is if it were a parser with little thought or work put into it.

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags...

This statement has been shown to be false in many parser threads.

Also, it does not make you free to be an idiot to people, they won't be removing the report feature, it would just mean that a number could be put to the reason you remove someone, not that you are free to harass other players.

[Welsper59]

Thats why I said most, as well as "I have to think". And I do believe it to be true. The arguments for parsers far outweigh the ones against. The only way it would be bad if is if it were a parser with little thought or work put into it.

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags that, I guarantee, does come about when people are able to freely flex their e-peen. I do state the guarantee with emphasis because there has been zero evidence at any point in more than the last decade to show that history will not repeat itself within an MMORPG environment lol. We, the player base, are absolute idiots when we're given anything to use at our disposal to emphasize competition (even against those who have no idea they're apparently competing). If the devs don't want to deal with it, they don't have to, and thus they're not officially in the game. That argument alone trumps all others lol.

The fact they are aware of it and are okay with it (off the record) is just a means to say "you are free to use them, but don't be an idiot". Whereas, were it to be official, you could be that idiot without concern and the devs will have to throw more problems onto the table to be looked at. I like parsers, and admittedly I use it myself from time to time, but it's seriously not as big of a deal as people make it out to be with how we are now. Most people for it are acting as though an official "ok" or removal of it from ToS is suddenly going to make the whole game change for the better in some huge completely game changing way lol. That is literally impossible to happen because it already exists. Nothing changes in a meaningful way.

People are blending in two arguments and failing miserably by doing so. There's the argument for their absolute approval to use, which is the most popular one, and the argument for their official creation. The latter is the only one that has weight, given the situation and unofficial acknowledgment for the former. An official creation would directly benefit console users... that's pretty much it, as far as what we have right now. That argument however gets overshadowed by the want for them to officially declare it all right to use. Paying attention to parsers would still be optional though, just like how paying attention to your own abilities is! Funny how all of that still comes together for ways to potentially fail lol.

[RickXRolled]

What people fail to realize is that there is already allot of people who use parsers.
They simply don't know because the people parsing usually don't say/do anything.
The only times they find out players are parsing is when one person links it in chat or starts to attack people.
Since they never notice any parsing players, except when it is used to harass, they believe the only players parsing are evil douchebags.

TLDR;
People only see negative parser use and never know of any positives.

[Malevicton]

It really does just come down to the fact the devs apparently don't want to deal with the influx of d-bags

Not really, though. Devs have asked people not to use them for harassment, but they've never really said that they would cause more - that's just something the community decided. This source is a bit old (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WX...outu.be&t=6m5s) but he never even mentions harassment as one of the reasons, let alone the foremost. Here's another interview (http://gamerescape.com/2014/02/12/ps...naoki-yoshida/) where yoshi's asked about it and never mentions harassment in a 3 paragraph answer. If your argument is that it's a dev position, then you should really have a source. In this case, that's not the dev position, it's a community position.

I know everyone says it's a dev position, but it's really bugging me because it's really not true at all. After the first ZAM interview where he laid down fight club rules, everyone started saying stuff like "so basically as long as you don't use it to harass people, no one will know." Which is true. But that was just because harassment would break the fight club rules; harassment itself was never the focus until the community made it that way. Harassment being in any way relevant to parsers was a conclusion drawn by the community via a series of implications, none of which are really tied to any dev statement.

At this point everyone just assumes it's true because so many people say it, and people say it because they assume it's true, and they assume it's true... ad infinitum. That argument might trump all others if it were true, but it's not.

As for your personal opinions about it... where are you gathering this evidence? Everything I've seen and experienced personally (stuff like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas) suggests the opposite. If you're going to appeal to history, can you find any examples? I agree that there's no reason to think history wouldn't repeat itself, but we apparently have very different ideas as to what that means.

[Kosmos992k]

I'm sorry, but this trope has to go. Again, this talking point functions on a false dichotomy that fails to take into consideration people who know their job, execute their rotations when the situation allows them to do so, and use abilities in a timely fashion, but have no desire to focus on their numbers more than necessary. It also fails to take into account those of us who have no objection (let me repeat that: No Objection) to parsers that show one's own numbers in an accurate fashion (i.e. no slurring over DoT numbers, pet damage, etc.). Something like that would certainly help those of us who wouldn't mind tinkering with our rotations or finding ways to work around anti-mage mechanics (but that's a different subject altogether).

Parsers are something I dislike because a) an annoying minority ofplayers use their parser data to justify verbally abusing others over their performance; b)because it takes something that should be learned and mastered and turns it into paint by numbers; c) some players develope tunnel vision focuse on their parsed dps, and little else resulting in poor situational awareness; and d) in the case of some players/parser users, it extracts the fun of the game and replaces it with a cold mathematical exercise in achieving a certain number, itseems to my like it ceases to be a game and becomes more work-like with specific performance levels.

The current meta that people often talk about in the tank forum is the "moar dps" meta. In my opinion parser use feeds into that because it creates targets and expectation that show up third hand when some on demands a tank should wear STR accessories in 4-man DF content. I feel like the only target in a dungeon run is a successful run, preferrably without wipes. That's kind of the expectation implicit in the game and so long as players are not griefing by deliberately plaing poorly to interfere with other players, and are putting out damage sufficient to kill trashpacks and bosses, they are meeting the only targets and expectations that matter.

But, I fear that a standard parser included in game will legitamize someof the milder parser user to tell others their numbers are poor, because after all if the parser is included, it' ok to use it right?

Please note I am not saying that the majority of parser users abuse the tool or infromation it provides. Although for a player on the receiving end, what is meant as constructive advice based on parser data can come across as critical and mildly bullying simply because the player giving the advice is frustrated and more curt than intended.

I'd prefer it (parser use) be left in a grey area of 'ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies'; where those who use parsers privately can do so to their heart's delight, but those using parser data improperly are subject to potential discipline if reported.

This issue that nobody wants to address, topic seemed to start by talking about the speed with which DF dungeons are run, but seems to have become centered around the use, or not, of parsers...presumably to improve dps performance by all to speed up runs?

It kind of seems like we are looking at the difference between amateur athletes that run, jump, whatever else because they enjoy it, but are not competitive versus competitive athletes who treat every practice run as a competition the must win, and think they are helping by demanding more performance from the fun runners to 'help them improve'. Despite the fun runners being quite happy with their pace and being able to participate in and complete races with others. The well intentioned demand to improve could esily result in the happy, fun, comfortable feeling the fun runner has tobe lost, andthat runner quitting. The fun runners are not stopping the competitive athletes from competing, and would never impose themself into a relay race team, because they know they are unable to performat the same level as the competitive team. Because duty finder randomly groups players together, ther is a good chance that fun runners and competitive runners get put into the same group. The competitive runners really just need to accept the other runners and make the best of it, if competitive runners don't want to do that, then perhaps they should preselect their 4-man relay team from amoung competitive runners?

In short if you expect a fast 4-man 'relay' then pre-form the group from competitive players, when using DF be prepared to accept the fun runners.

[Ryel]

Parsers are something I dislike because a) an annoying minority ofplayers use their parser data to justify verbally abusing others over their performance; b)because it takes something that should be learned and mastered and turns it into paint by numbers; c) some players develope tunnel vision focuse on their parsed dps, and little else resulting in poor situational awareness; and d) in the case of some players/parser users, it extracts the fun of the game and replaces it with a cold mathematical exercise in achieving a certain number, itseems to my like it ceases to be a game and becomes more work-like with specific performance levels.

Scripted fights and DPS checks already do this regardless of if we can read the numbers or not.

lets not pretend that almost every single endgame encounter isn't designed with some combination or variation of do the dance and meet the DPS check. I mean if you haven't stepped foot into any of these fights (by your admission) I'd take a 20 second stroll over to youtube to see for yourself.

In fact I'd argue that normal dungeon runs offer more variation in content design at this point.

The current meta that people often talk about in the tank forum is the "moar dps" meta. In my opinion parser use feeds into that because it creates targets and expectation that show up third hand when some on demands a tank should wear STR accessories in 4-man DF content. I feel like the only target in a dungeon run is a successful run, preferrably without wipes. That's kind of the expectation implicit in the game and so long as players are not griefing by deliberately plaing poorly to interfere with other players, and are putting out damage sufficient to kill trashpacks and bosses, they are meeting the only targets and expectations that matter.

This is an itemization issue and not a parser issue, you don't even need to run numbers to see when a tank is eating damage and sitting at 80% of their health bar (with CD usage) because they simply have more HP than they need for the encounter.

At that point do you really need more HP?

Regardless of where you stand on the itemization though, i doubt anyone is going to get kicked for wearing full VIT in 4-man dungeons almost any content.

But, I fear that a standard parser included in game will legitamize some of the milder parser user to tell others their numbers are poor, because after all if the parser is included, it' ok to use it right?

Please note I am not saying that the majority of parser users abuse the tool or infromation it provides. Although for a player on the receiving end, what is meant as constructive advice based on parser data can come across as critical and mildly bullying simply because the player giving the advice is frustrated and more curt than intended.

Why is this even a realistic fear in any capacity when over a decade of MMO history spanning dozens of games worldwide that have either allowed or included some form of performance measurement have shown that the cases of harassment that have arisen due to those features are statistically insignificant?

I mean it's so rare that you actually encounter / hear of anyone doing that and in the (unlikely) event that a player does they simply get reported to a GM and you carry on with your day.

If you're afraid that constructive criticism can mistakenly come across as bullying then the answer is to work on community communication, not to deny positive game features and progress instead.

I'd prefer it (parser use) be left in a grey area of 'ask me no questions, and I'll tell you no lies'; where those who use parsers privately can do so to their heart's delight, but those using parser data improperly are subject to potential discipline if reported.

This issue that nobody wants to address, topic seemed to start by talking about the speed with which DF dungeons are run, but seems to have become centered around the use, or not, of parsers...presumably to improve dps performance by all to speed up runs?

It kind of seems like we are looking at the difference between amateur athletes that run, jump, whatever else because they enjoy it, but are not competitive versus competitive athletes who treat every practice run as a competition the must win, and think they are helping by demanding more performance from the fun runners to 'help them improve'. Despite the fun runners being quite happy with their pace and being able to participate in and complete races with others. The well intentioned demand to improve could esily result in the happy, fun, comfortable feeling the fun runner has tobe lost, andthat runner quitting. The fun runners are not stopping the competitive athletes from competing, and would never impose themself into a relay race team, because they know they are unable to performat the same level as the competitive team. Because duty finder randomly groups players together, ther is a good chance that fun runners and competitive runners get put into the same group. The competitive runners really just need to accept the other runners and make the best of it, if competitive runners don't want to do that, then perhaps they should preselect their 4-man relay team from amoung competitive runners?

In short if you expect a fast 4-man 'relay' then pre-form the group from competitive players, when using DF be prepared to accept the fun runners.

As long as endgame continues to be designed around DPS checks it makes less and less sense to not include a tool of some kind to gauge performance.

Whenever players talk about adding these features what is stated above is what they're referring to, nobody really cares what happens in 4-man content usually, unless there is a DPS check involved (see: Demon wall on release.) Or the discrepancy between two players is so large that it might as well be just one player doing all of the work. However they do care when it comes to something like Bismark Ex, or Savage Alexander, I once again welcome you to take a stroll over to youtube to find out why.

Whether or not a player personally uses a parser they still indirectly benefit in a wide variety of ways from second and third hand information, the job forums on this website would probably be dead if not for the posts, findings, and numbers done by players using them in some degree.

And as said before, If tanks and healers can have their performance be so transparent in everything they do ranging from 4-man content to endgame, why are DPS not subject to the same accountability?

EDIT: You make the comparison to ending up with fun runners in 4-mans, but i promise you the fun running tank that can't hold hate or doesn't mitigate damage, or the fun running healer that doesn't heal party members will very quickly find themselves warming the bench.