Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[whiskeybravo]

No, they dont. the vast majority of content in this game right now is nothing more than a series of DPS checks, you dont meet the check, you fail the content, period.

If we didn't have the option then it would likely be the most complained about thing on this forum. It already was complained about and changed.. You guys have clearly lost your marbles. How annoying would it be if hitting FC or WT out of positional didn't at least extend your timer, this would be even more debilitating than loss of potency.

You seem to not be differentiating the ability to do something vs the ability to do something well. So, it's OK for you guys to admit it's not necessary. I've provided the math on previous complaint threads that even hitting every FC/WT out of position, just maintaining the timer for GK and Jump damage boost, it's still a dps gain over the old rotation. Is the most dps ever from a drg? No, I never claimed such. But to repeatedly say people don't have the option to not hit positionals, when quite frankly there is at least one situation in every encounter where it's possible to miss a positional due to mechanics or boss movement. The world does not end..

[RiceisNice]

If we didn't have the option then it would likely be the most complained about thing on this forum. It already was complained about and changed.. You guys have clearly lost your marbles. How annoying would it be if hitting FC or WT out of positional didn't at least extend your timer, this would be even more debilitating than loss of potency.

And just to add onto this, having hard requirements for positional (that is, you hit for 100 potency, no buffs and no combo extension as a result) is something that can be blocked by fight mechanics. FCoB became a very clear example of that when it came to T11 for DRGs pre-change. With that context, it becomes a much bigger beast when we're talking "doing ok vs doing well" vs "doing poorly vs doing well" because the situation can be taken out of the player's control when it comes to boss mechanics.

[Hitoseijuro]

There is no point to it. its a bullcrap mechanic that was thrown in as lazy design just to add another positional. the term i believe is called 'button bloating', all they did was copy/paste one attack onto two buttons.

^ Pretty much , but so many people here are actually arguing for it like its some great innovation to the job and it makes it interesting or keep it from being old and boring. I'm sorry but if adding a useless ability into a mechanic and forcing it to be needed to be useful due to randomness keeps the job from being boring ....then this job is not for you. Putting in WT and making it random with FnC does not make this job interesting to play.....

Either do away with WT or do away with the randomness. The randomness in itself confirms that WT was a useless addition to the mechanic because it implies that FnC can proc for either chaos or full thrust combo thus confirming that FnC can accomplish everything that it needs to for both combo chains on top of still extend BoTD timer... ie you didnt need WT.

[Subucnimorning]

^ Pretty much , but so many people here are actually arguing for it like its some great innovation to the job and it makes it interesting or keep it from being old and boring. I'm sorry but if adding a useless ability into a mechanic and forcing it to be needed to be useful due to randomness keeps the job from being boring ....then this job is not for you. Putting in WT and making it random with FnC does not make this job interesting to play.....

I guess I shouldn't play the class then given the above from someone with a level 54 Dragoon...who hasn't even experienced the abilities.

The random aspect actually does make it interesting and makes you have to pay attention instead of mindlessly going through the same set rotation repeatedly.

[Hitoseijuro]

I guess I shouldn't play the class then given the above from someone with a level 54 Dragoon...who hasn't even experienced the abilities.

Yes, I totally need to experience WT in order to understand that its need for dragoon and it offers a total new experience that Im missing out not having dragoon to 60...

How does it make you pay attention more than you already do.....its a random proc that you KNOW is going to occur.....its either one or the other there is no SURPRISE to pay attention, as soon as you finish chaos or full thrust, you KNOW its going to be FnC or WT....yes its random but you KNOW its going to be either two...

Blm and bard at 50 made you pay attention because fire and thunder procs happened without warning, blood letter procs had you pay attention to optimally weave it with your rotation because if you had a high crit rate your procs would sometimes happen back to back and other times nothing.

[RiceisNice]

...

Except in regards to BLM and BRD, both procs always lead to the same abilties and you didn't have to adjust your positioning to accomidate. If anything, it's a bit more clumsy than DRG because they can't play re-actively to the procs more often than not, especially BRD.

[JackFross]

How does it make you pay attention more than you already do...

Before 3.0, in absolutely every content that was in the game, I could essentially AFK dps it. I had my rotation down so well that my tab targets would happen instantly, I was hitting skills exactly when and where I needed to without ever needing to really look at my skill bar. Muscle memory.

Dragoon was literally the only job that had this ability. It was rote and required you to pay absolutely 0 attention to anything other than mechanics - which is why I was always baffled by DRGs dying to mechanics, but that's a story for another time.

FaC and WT add a layer of complexity to an incredibly simple class. Yeah it's shitty that we waste two skills out of five just to add this layer, but I don't really understand the open hostility. It's not lazy design, it's a purposeful choice to make the class slightly more dynamic while maintaining the heart of the job - its relatively rote nature. The addition doesn't drastically change the way you play. That's... exactly the point. It doesn't alter gameplay, it doesn't make the class harder, it makes it different. It makes you actually pay attention to your skills, sometimes, if you want to maximize how much damage you're doing. It's not required to even look at if you just wanna play Dragoon. You can macro the two skills together and hit that one button every time without caring about positionals and you'll do just fine, overall. (Thanks to the buff, since 100 v 290 was stupid)

It adds a layer of complexity between skill floor and skill ceiling for the class. A layer that varies based on what fight you're in. It's incredibly good. People who love the class should adore this change. It helps to separate the good dragoons from the great ones, since there's rarely a situation where you're FORCED to miss positionals in the current raid tier, but there are dozens of situations where it's tricky to make sure you maintain them, what with spinning bosses in A1S or massive mob groups in A2S or the various mechanics in A3S that force you to be in certain places at certain times to not wipe.

It's good because it's not a HUGE DPS loss to miss every positional, but it's enough that you'll notice.


So I dunno. Think what you will, but I would never agree that the decision was lazy or dumb, and there's no skill I'd rather get at 58. Our DPS is high enough. What more do we need that you'd give us in place of WT?

[Hitoseijuro]

Yeah it's shitty that we waste two skills out of five just to add this layer

Thats one of the points people are making , hence some of the comments of it being a "lazy design". Theres probably a lot of ways they could have made this type of mechanic better. So basically you have WT which is a mirror of FnC and the only way to have it in the game is through this randomness mechanic. I mean if they added something more to WT, I feel the design would feel better. Again it just feels like you juggle these 2 abilities....just to juggle them..you can say an interesting mechanic, other people are saying an irrelevant juggle.

but I don't really understand the open hostility.

No hostility on my end, I respect your opinion and I feel you defended your points for it just fine. People were saying that without this mechanic the job would be boring, so if the job was boring before this, why were they playing it... I play the job because I enjoy the job, the lore and the armor, adding this mechanic is not going to change that. It does make me wonder why they didn't implement this mechanic different then they did, WT could have been different in some way from FnC perhaps. Maybe the animations could have been done in a way to reflect a relationship between both abilities, I would have enjoyed that much better.

What more do we need that you'd give us in place of WT?

I dont know to be honesty, Dragoon is fine with whatever could have been there, because its fine now, Dragoon is in a good place right now.

[JackFross]

Open hostility wasn't referring to anyone's attitude toward the discussion; I was referencing the hostility with which many people greet the FaC/WT dynamic. So many people rage about it and whine about it and I just don't really understand why. All of the arguments for why it's bad seem really weak compared to what I outlined for why it's good, so meh.

And, yeah. I was hoping it'd be TTT>FaC and IDC>WT, with each of the two skills being +15s on BotD along with special secondary effects depending which one it was. But once it was implemented the way it is, I prefer that to what I just explained. What secondary effects would we be hoping for, really, that we'd even want or need without it making Dragoon even MORE useful than it already is? Battle Litany + second-best standstill dps + 10% buff to BRD/MCH put us right at the top of the DPS totem pole as a class which is almost necessary in any raid group. What added effects could FaC and WT seriously have that would do anything other than propel us to the point where that "almost" fades away?

And that's the issue, which is why I prefer how it is~

[Seku]

Before 3.0, in absolutely every content that was in the game, I could essentially AFK dps it. I had my rotation down so well that my tab targets would happen instantly, I was hitting skills exactly when and where I needed to without ever needing to really look at my skill bar. Muscle memory.

Dragoon was literally the only job that had this ability. It was rote and required you to pay absolutely 0 attention to anything other than mechanics - which is why I was always baffled by DRGs dying to mechanics, but that's a story for another time.

FaC and WT add a layer of complexity to an incredibly simple class.

If you're afk dpsing means you're using macros which iirc actually kills your DPS despite getting the rotations and positional correctly. The rest of what you're saying is pure opinion. Moving 2 steps isn't complexity to me in the least and there are plenty of ways to move your hot bar around to get a clear visual of which skill is currently up, more so since they highlight. If any class is "complex" it's ninja if you don't macro your mudras. This skill serves no purpose. If you're claiming it's there due to "complexity" I pray you're not a main DRG, MNK, or NIN.