Lets nerf WAR :D

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Snip

Ohhh boy... The level of ignorance in your post is reaching critical levels. First off, Ravana speed runs are done with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS. Secondly you seem to think that PLD is far ahead of WAR in the mitigation department which is simply not true. You then said that PLD has the superior set of CDs which is again not true. Lets take a look at each defensive kit THE RIGHT WAY

Rampart vs IB: As far as uptime goes they are roughly equal but I will say IB is the winner for the simple fact of accessibility.

Vengence vs Sentinel: If you dont know why Vengence is the superior CD in a prolonged fight by now then you need to stop posting here. But to touch on it briefly, the amount of uptime Vengence provides with its extended duration AND increased DPS for WAR make it superior than a flat 40% mitigation. For example in a five minute fight Vengence would out mitigate Sentinel... By a lot

Raw Intuition vs Bulwark: This depends on the shield equipped and what is being tanked. For multiple massive physical hits then Raw Intuition wins because of reliability. If we are talking about a trash mob then Bulwark might be better. However if you change this to Raw Intuition+Awareness then the amount of uptime RI has minus its one downside makes it the clear cut winner

WAR Convalescence vs PLD Convalescence: Now obviously native spells are superior but really WAR wins here because while it gained Convo from cross class PLD gained.... Uhhh... Mercy Stroke?

Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground: Now obviously Hallowed Ground wins out in the overall mitigation and usability but the uptime of Holmgang allows more more flexible use of WARs other CDs because you can almost guarentee Holmgang will be up for the buster. Just look at A1S as an example. By Holmganging 1st and 3rd i can freely use Vengence for Royal F and will actually increase my overall mitigation.

Clemency vs Equilibrium: Hahahahaha... Yeah Equilibrium wins because Clemecy is too busy eating glue and getting interrupted.

WAR foresight vs PLD forsight: They both suck

WAR Bloodbath vs PLD Bloodbath: WAR actually has a use for bloodbath with their stupid DPS, overpower, IB, and Berskerk... WAR wins by a landslide.

Sheltron vs Thrill of Battle: This is a toss up and depends on how each is being used. ToB is great as a recovery tool after Holmganging or a means to meatshield larger hits when coupled with Convo. Sheltron COULD be amazing if it didnt get taken by an AA half of the time but its MP regen and CD time are great. I say this is a tie.

Storms Path vs RoH: Not even close. Path wins

At the end of the day WAR possess a powerful defensive kit while simultaneously possessing significantly higher DPS than PLD. Hell I didn't even go into the fact that some of WARs CDs also double as offensive tools with stacks or the fact that WARs crazy defensive uptime also allows for them to enter their DPS stance safely more often than PLD without taxing the ever loving shit out of their healers.

When all is said and done PLD only out mitigates WAR by a TINY amount and this only applies to physical heavy fights or fights that have large numbers of trash. If we are talking about magic heavy fights such as A4S then PLD actually mitigates LESS. This isn't even bringing into account that higher DPS = Shorter Fight Time/Pushed Phases = Less Damage Taken. So in those rare case where PLD mitigation does significantly surpass WARs mitigation it does NOT allow for a significant increase in healer DPS, certainly not enough to cover the huge gap between WAR and PLD DPS.

Aside from allllll that, WAR also posesses raid utility with Path, Eye, great tank DPS, and the ability to mitigate all types of damage and not being locked into being a magic or physical specialist.

[RapBreon]

Bro edit your posts to bypass the character limit; for the love of god.

Edit: God bless.

[MeeYow]

Exodus: IB uptime is 50% higher than rampart, plus it is a 300 potency attack, heal and a significant TP saver AND can be converted to more damage if mitigation is not needed. The only cost is the WAR has to know the fight to manage stacks, which any capable DRK will also know the fight for cooldown management, and the PLD probably has to know better for things like using shelltron on fluid swing.

IB is by far the best non invincibility 'cooldown' in the game.

As for RI and bulwark, firstly, garunteed mitigation is MUCH better because of the buster meta. Even if a PLD uses a 27% kite the 60% increase gives effectively 16.2% mitigation whilst the 80%+ RI parry increase gives 16% mitigation. Equal for a Large shield, worse for all other types. Not to mention that raw intuition has 33% more duration AND half the cooldown AND generates wrath.

Also, Thrill of battle paired with Convalescence has the ability to turn two not quite mitigation (increasing EHP AND decreasing curing required) cooldowns into one legitimate one with an effective mitigation of 17%

Much like Awareness is well paired with Raw Intuition.

It is sad that some of PLDs skills feel much more at home on WAR.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Yeah I was taking into consideration stance dancing, Fell Cleaving things, and the fact that Rampart can be used to cover PLD in Sword Oath.... I was also only looking at them from a Defensive Kit aka: what can this mitigate point of view. Man... Honestly I was just trying to throw PLD some kind of bone. As a pure CD Rampart is good...but yeah as a whole IB is way better.

But you are 100% correct on everything that you said.

This is all balanced right?

[Leonus]

Ohhh boy... The level of ignorance in your post is reaching critical levels. First off, Ravana speed runs are done with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 6 DPS.

Had to reply to this, but actually, Ravana is speed runs can be done with 2 tanks, 4 dps and 2 healers. You just won't be the absolute fastest.

[MeeYow]

Nothing is wrong with Rampart it is a good CD, also IB is a nice concept, but people often use the stock response of it being part of a larger kit to justify how good it is. The problem is when someone like you goes through the entire kit and notices for every PLD cooldown WAR has an equivalent or better one, that falls apart.

Stance dancing is the right way to consider everything, i was only making a few extra notes so I just put in one sentence about fell cleaves in my last post. The main problem I have is people seem to try to argue the IB FC trade off as a weakness, but it is a strength, it pulls more damage when a cooldown is not necessary, and when a CD is necessary IB is just as strong as it always was. Imagine if PLD could turn shelltron or bulwark into more DPS in A1S, we wouldn't be complaining!

Edit: Also recast timers are massively undervalued. AS1 week 1 being the classic example where PLD, the supposed defence specialist, was the only tank garunteed to run out of cooldowns by tank buster 4. It is also the only one that finds itself needing to weave its invuln skill into its normal CD rotation in order to not run out.

[Exodus_Kenpachi]

Had to reply to this, but actually, Ravana is speed runs can be done with 2 tanks, 4 dps and 2 healers. You just won't be the absolute fastest.

Then.... Then.... It wouldn't be a speed run... The point of a speed run is.... Speed.... So brining the max DPS is always optimal....

[Leonus]

Then.... Then.... It wouldn't be a speed run... The point of a speed run is.... Speed.... So brining the max DPS is always optimal....

This is true, but I know some people who wanted to see how fast they could beat ravana with 6 wars, an AST and a sch. They kept trying to beat their previous time, technically, those are speed runs.. I'm just... Saiyan.

[Abbul_Stonecleaver]

Edit: Also recast timers are massively undervalued. AS1 week 1 being the classic example where PLD, the supposed defence specialist, was the only tank garunteed to run out of cooldowns by tank buster 4. It is also the only one that finds itself needing to weave its invuln skill into its normal CD rotation in order to not run out.

Iirc enrage happens before fourth buster. I remember only needing to plan for 3.


Nowadays with only 2 busters for most groups, Pal HG means even more. Pal can go Sword Oath entire time easier than War full Deliverance. I'm having to swap into Defiance for 10ish seconds for second buster, while a Pal never would have to go into Shield Oath after opener.

[MeeYow]

Enrage is immediately after. If you were pushing that close the last thing you wanted was a dead tank.

Overgear/Farming content isn't a good measuring stick for if classes are balanced or not.

I don't think many DRKs or PLDs will be sympathetic to the stance dancing woes of a WAR.

Also: 25% damage for 10s equates to one GCD, keep in mind that when PLD has to swap it loses 2 GCD - two jumps worth for a WAR - straight up before it loses its 20% damage, a disadvantage to the point where most probably don't even swap until the jump and just drop the shield oath buff. This is in the two jump scenario, anything progression wise PLD is clearly still worse off.

PLD do have to swap for the buster rather than sentinel alone as there is an auto immediately after which does about 3k, just sentinel leaves the total at about 17.4k with respect to the standard 16k HP, ShO brings this to 13.9k which is reliable. The extra STR at 16k outweighs the DPS loss from the swap. It can be done without but for the healing window is very small even for precasted heals.

Finally: in the same kind of run the WAR can holmgang the first buster and stack cooldowns on the second, only needing to enter defiance once in two or three jumps, videos are not hard to find. In fact i would guess more two jump groups are double WAR than PLD/anything. If it was it almost certainly wouldn't have a shield oath PLD opener, it would have a tank with higher hate mods in its dps stance.