Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[Kaisersoke]

dragoons dont need, or even deserve, another ability at 58.

[Spayd]

I think people whine too much about this kind of stuff. Considering the fact that all the moveset of Dragoon or almost is used, compared to other jobs where some skills have not been used since the leveling or extremely situational moments, DRG having a ''wasted'' skill doesn't bother me at all, and so it shouldn't for you.

Weaponskills that DRG doesn't use at all: Feint. Yup. That's about it. Rest of the moveset is all used kind of frequently. Please take a look to any other jobs.

Having Wheeling Thrust or FaC with the same effect? Don't give a damn, makes in sort I don't tunnel vision.

[Viviza]

Complexity for the sake of complexity is never necessary and never fun. It is objectively terrible game design, but we just have to deal with it until the devs realize that. It's a shame. I've given enough feedback already on how to simply fix it. It really is as bad and stupid as it looks.

Maybe they should remove all DPS abilities and just have one button with the ability 'Stab'.

Dragoon is now perfect and balanced. If you add more abilities you're just adding complexity -- Stab is enough to do competitive DPS.

[Leonus]

Complexity for the sake of complexity is never necessary and never fun. It is objectively terrible game design, but we just have to deal with it until the devs realize that. It's a shame. I've given enough feedback already on how to simply fix it. It really is as bad and stupid as it looks.

Speak for yourself, and only yourself please. I find that complexity, even sometimes for the sake of complexity can be fun.

Edit: also, as much as this dead horse was beaten before, with no announced changes/plans of changes, it's amazing that people can still complain.

[Aiselia]

Complexity for the sake of complexity is never necessary and never fun.

So are you saying you also want Heavy Thrust to be removed? It's a buff you have to keep up for extra damage, but all it really does is add an extra attack to your rotation. They could just make it a passive buff like Fists of Fire or NIN venoms. So let's remove that because it's complexity for the sake of complexity.

For that matter, why combos? That's complexity for the sake of complexity. Not fun at all. Remove combos and just make one attack that has a potency equal to the average potency of a full combo.

Cooldowns? Too complex. Not necessary. Remove them and just give a damage boost equal to the average boost you'd get with proper CD usage.

Heck, why mechanics? That's just complexity for the sake of complexity. Let's just make all bosses be training dummies.

Or they could have made it a 100% chance not to move after chaos thrust.

Before you get it, you have a 0% chance to not have to move after Chaos Thrust. 50% is an objective increase.

[Jaehaerys]

I would love for them to move Wheeling Thrust to the level 56 quest so you get them both at the same time, and give us a new "Jump" at 58, odd that the class based around jump, didn't get a new jump with Heavensward. Or maybe something defensive.

Moving from back to flank or vice versa isn't complex either, no matter what anyone argues. moving is a common thing we do in all MMOs.

[Hitoseijuro]

I would love for them to move Wheeling Thrust to the level 56 quest so you get them both at the same time, and give us a new "Jump" at 58, odd that the class based around jump, didn't get a new jump with Heavensward. Or maybe something defensive.

Moving from back to flank or vice versa isn't complex either, no matter what anyone argues. moving is a common thing we do in all MMOs.

I dont think when people are mentioning complex, that its difficult in any way to do, its more along the lines that Square enix decided to add another ability at 58 for dragoon that accomplishes the exact same thing as the ability at 56 with only the positional being different and the moves being required after the combo chain becomes random thus adding the "complex" expression on people's faces of "huh".


It would be like if when monk goes to coeurl stance instead of using demolish, it becomes a random chance of using demolish or another ability that does exactly what demolish does but from the flank.

Fang and Claw could have easily been a rear positional, and the dev team could have called it a day and given us another powered up dive(not jump, but dive).

[RiceisNice]

...

Except it's in a different circumstance. Monk rotations rely on stances so they always give the same skill accessibility no matter what (they do either demolish, snap punch or rockbreaker on coeurl). There's also no point in giving them two different demolishes that work functionally the same if their purpose was just damage. In DRG's case, it's extending BotD which accounts for a good chunk of their damage. It prevents tunnel visioning and demand some aspect of situation awareness and giving the class some identity in their gameplay. For example, why would they use a proc system rotation instead of a 1-2-3 combo for MCH? It's "adding complexity" or whatever. Difficult or not, it at least deviates the job to some extent from BRD (though not enough imo) and melee classes who already use 1-2-3 combos.

The question is, does the design of adding WT/FnC go against the design of dragoon, does it add more variety and differentiates from the other melees? Adding another oGCD honestly does not add much and is very boring if it meant taking/changing one aspect of management on the DRG's end (which is what BRD suffers from, since once you break it down, all they've really gotten is a couple of extra oGCDs added onto their 2.0 gameplay)

If you wanted another ability in it's place, then sure. But I'd disagree that something like WT is a "pointless" addition, at least not to the same extent of the likes of warden's paeon or pre-3.05 WM/GB.

[Hitoseijuro]

There's also no point in giving them two different demolishes that work functionally the same if their purpose was just damage. In DRG's case, it's extending BotD which accounts for a good chunk of their damage.

Exactly, this is what everyone who is opposed to having wheeling thrust in the game or having wheeling thrust learned separately from Fang and Claw. WT adds NOTHING, it is a mirror image ability of Fang and Claw with the positional being the ONLY difference(and obviously animation). FnC extends BoTDs timer too, again, Wheeling Thrust ACCOMPLISHES NOTHING over Fang and Claw.

Basically Square could have just done: Impulsive dive --> disembowel --> Chaos thrust --> Fang and Claw /// True thrust --> vorpal thrust --> full thrust ---> Fang and claw . This would have been the same out come DPS-wise and no one would have blinked an eye. This is why a couple of posters are saying, there is nothing being added with Wheeling thrust outside of complexity just for complex sake, it achieves nothing but its being added just to add. Everything that is being achieved could have been achieved with just fang claw itself.

Hell the E3 Fang and Claw and WT were done so when you used chaos you would get one, and when you used full thrust you would get the other but it wouldnt be random you knew which you would get always(This would have been a smoother idea and preferred) but I believe Dervy said that, that was due to it being on an older model/engine probably.

[Subucnimorning]

What is wrong for complexity for complexity sakes again? I don't prefer mindless rotations which is why I wasn't a big fan of DRG in ARR there were no variables in the rotation, always a set rotation.