Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Rhomagus]

My response to Jobeto-Rin is in blue.

I couldn't do all that quote stuff so I just bold my original quote and red is Rhomagus response.

"So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?" Yes to some extent


To some extent?
You are either immersed/involved or not. Your playing the game or your not. Period
There is no gray. You are still being immersed into it. We all are being immersed, the only difference is our level of it. That is the point being made.Yep, but that makes it objective. That means that you can definitely say that someone is immersed if they are involving themselves in any way with the content. If they are not involved with the content, they have no immersion whatsoever. These are objective statements. When I said "to an extent" I was referring to the individual levels in which a person can be immersed. I think everyone in the thread was referring to the immersion point/level after the point of login.

"Just by choosing to log in there is a level of immersion that is required of the user, but that's the base of it."

There you said it for me. That's all I needed to read. Any level of immersion is now subjective.Yes, level is subjective, not whether or not someone is or isn't, you can make a factual statement about whether or not someone is or isn't immersed. You can't really make a factual quantifiable statement about their own individual level of immersion.

"Only the level of it and feelings are" The level of it and feelings are. I don't think only though. As some people don't move beyond the "hook"..

Just because the "hook" wasn't enjoyable enough, does not mean they're not immersed. It means they're not enjoying the immersion that the game "hook" provides.If they log off and never play again, they are not immersed. That is what's subjective.When referencing the level of immersion after the login. We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless.Not if we're not playing and not thinking about it. the level of it depends on the person.I agree. Therefore reducing things to accommodate for the people who are less immersed is taking away from the people who are.Absolutely incorrect. Options on airship rides is an example,Not for showing how immersion can be retained for those who want it. because traveling is important to immersion.As important as a sleep sequence in a film. As important as what a dog is thinking in a country far away in a book where the plot revolves around two young lovers. As important as a news anchors opinion when getting news information. As important as leopard print seats in your automobile. As important as the toppings you prefer on your pizza. As important as the color of your box of pop tarts. As important as the type of shoes you where.... when you're dealing with subjective content one person can assign a level of importance to another person's opinion. They can accommodate for them by providing options that fulfill their needs. Explained below.

"Love or lump your version of immersion," Not to be off topic but I found this sentence beautifully poetic. I don't understand the phrase "love or lump" but I'll assume that it's akin to "love or loathe"

Yes, it's equivalent to that, lol thank you. I'm into poetry and have intermittent urges to rhyme. They overtake me at times.

"who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience."
But you aren't them. You can be only you. Only you can experience your experiences.

The same can be said about you and your experiences. If I can't speak for others, how can you? Because when it comes to your complaints, they've already been addressed. You have a lore backed reasoning for instant travel. You have reasons for airship content in "Future Airship Content Ideas" thread. You have a risk/reward scenario attached to each choice, further enhancing interactivity. It's as if you are asking for a red car. I give you a blue car and someone else a green car, and you complain that someone else has a green car. You aren't going to please everyone 100% of the time, but it makes no sense to not please people when you have the ability to do so.

"Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness."
But it's wholly unnecessary to completely base your immersion on it.

Yes it is necessary!See the sleep scene metaphor. In order to feel distance you have to travel it.Then I'd argue it's not big enough. See the Africa/Madagascar metaphor, but that's not feasible to ask, nor required. Movement is needed to justify going somewhere.Not in Hydaelyn where you already have a lore mechanic that explains this. See the Star Trek metaphor. No shortcuts.There are already shortcuts. In all mediums. You take away a vital component to making an imaginary world large.Not when that imaginary world already includes a lore explanation for instantaneous travel. If you see a long long long hallway and a door at the end, your probably going to think, "damn thats a long ass hallway."Keep the hallway. I've never advocated for getting rid of the hallway. So you walk and you walk and you walk and you walk until arrival. That walking substantiates it, not only in your mind but also body wise, that you went somewhere because it took time to get there.In the real world. In a fantasy world where instantaneous travel is a part of the lore this is wholly unnecessary. Now if you see a button on the wall that says skip, press it and then your at the door. More than likely your going to be like "Well damn, that wasn't too far".I'll look behind me and say, "Whoa! I traveled that far. Especially if I could traverse that distance by foot if I so choosed. It's the people who literally run from coast to coast in the United States. Sure anyone can just drive, that doesn't hurt their achievement at all. They applaud their achievement because they chose to run. Even if they chose to run one year should we not allow them to own a vehicle when they are in their 60's and are unable to make the trip? The necessity, the need, the requirement to move long distances justifies massiveness.Wrong, the existence of the long distance justifies massiveness, not the traversal thereof. Without it there it remains only a mirage.If the distance is still there it's still there. That's messed up a virtual world mirage?Except that it hasn't. It's still there. This is an objective statement. I'm not advocating to get rid of the distance. Only the means to traverse it more efficiently and retain the option to experience it. Jesus.Is dead.

As shown by another poster in this thread. We don't watch a character sleep for 8 hours.

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game, that is a different type of immersion tact. It's not affected by airship rides. They're gameplay is effected. Their real life is affected. Especially if they are on it for the umpteenth time. Have seen the same bird fly around, has seen the same NPC driving the airship. After awhile they're just going to go AFK, when instead, they could have chosen a much more dynamic option instead of having rides force fed on them. The immersion type I'm referring to is relevant to the feeling of the size this world.Not in one where instantaneous travel is built into the lore. The main thing being effected.

I argued teleportion should be at aetherytes only. I failed to show why. Now this? No freaking way. Leave us our airships. You guys have anima to use wisely! I've never advocated for a riskless airship ride. Please. I've given you much further content concepts that please all parties than you've given me. Your please has already been considered and taken into account. Don't play the victim here like I'm some kind of stealing your subjective sense of immersion. You're being tyrannical by not, at the very least, coming to a compromise when your needs have already been satiated.These things are ruining the experience for those who do become immersed in it at a high level. Akin to Captain Picard beaming down to the planet below, and the camera cutting to his position.

and I'm not the only one who feels this way. I know, there are a lot of other greeding immersion elitist out there as well. The worse part about it is, that your needs have been addressed in the "Future Airship Contend Ideas" thread but you fail to provide feedback or content to it. The stance that the people in your position take is a "wrong" in an argument as someone could be. You offer no condolences to the other side. You offer no solutions to try to accommodate the other's needs. It's selfish and morally corrupt and that kind of attitude should be shunned in an MMO where people have to deal with each other.

I was surprised by the rhetoric in your response, especially when I was so light-hearted in my initial response. I'm no boy scout or defender of the weak. I've matched the rhetoric accordingly.

[Jobeto-Rin]

My response to Jobeto-Rin is in blue.



I was surprised by the rhetoric in your response, especially when I was so light-hearted in my initial response. I'm no boy scout or defender of the weak. I've matched the rhetoric accordingly.

Okay first off, I'm not sure where I'm coming off as being offensive, so I apologize.

Those aren't my intentions. In the midst of all this, I enjoy debating with you Rhomagus.

So, If i've cited anything that elicited something as such, my bad.

Now back to the thread.

I posted the statement about immersion being subjective regardless because i got the idea that some people were trying to say they weren't being immersed at all. So I had to make sure that we were all on the same page of what immersion was. I know that we are now.

I stated that the people who enjoy certain aspects of the game are being shortchanged when changes are being made to accommodate for a casuals time. How exactly am I incorrect? I made a analogy earlier.

There is a basketball game going on. Certain people don't have time to watch all 4 quarters, David Stern wants them to experience everything so he decides to accommodate for them by making it only 2 quarters, now it fits their schedule, their lifestyle. Now being an avid basketball fan, I now have 2 less quarters to watch thus my immersion is being cut in half. I experience half of what I could, I'mma feel cheated! Please, don't get too technical man, it's just an analogy.

Traveling affects the immersion of being in a massive open game world. No other type of immersion (that I can think of right now) is immediately affected. The sleep metaphor is irrelevant because it's not related to the size of the world. Regardless of if I watch him sleep or not doesn't affect the feeling of how vast the world is. Thats why you can't use my argument on it. I still don't see why your being redundant in using it against my points. Once again, the only type of immersion I'm talking about is the sense of scale in this world and what is affected by it, thus transportation topics.

Off topic but...why do you provide unnecessary responses? Some of them are a given.
Like your response to when I said "We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless"...
It was as if I'm not aware? Obviously, if I stated above that you are immersed only when your playing the game, I am. It seemed more of like a belittlement to my points/phrases instead of you trying to make an actual point to disparage mine. You do that throughout my paragraphs. Maybe I did that in yours?

...going on...after that you got into how the traveling/distance/massiveness points I made aren't applicable because of how IT's are built into the lore. Can someone please link me to this lore? I can't respond without reading this first.

Till then.

[Bled]

...going on...after that you got into how the traveling/distance/massiveness points I made aren't applicable because of how IT's are built into the lore. Can someone please link me to this lore? I can't respond without reading this first.

Till then.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/gameplay/guildleves

then click *Arethryte*

This is what he quoted for me lore wise i found it lacking fully, however the lore is attempted to be explained.

[Rhomagus]

Okay first off, I'm not sure where I'm coming off as being offensive, so I apologize.I've already outlined where you've overstepped the bounds of genuine discussion.

Those aren't my intentions. In the midst of all this, I enjoy debating with you Rhomagus.As did I for the most part.

So, If i've cited anything that elicited something as such, my bad.Understood, moving on.

Now back to the thread.

I posted the statement about immersion being subjective regardless because i got the idea that some people were trying to say they weren't being immersed at all. So I had to make sure that we were all on the same page of what immersion was. I know that we are now.Agreed and understood.

I stated that the people who enjoy certain aspects of the game are being shortchanged when changes are being made to accommodate for a casuals time. How exactly am I incorrect? Because they are still given the option to forgo instant travel. You aren't being shortchanged. This is an illusion cropped up by your own machinations. The smae applies to people who are making your argument.I made a analogy earlier. I read it but it does not apply.

There is a basketball game going on. Certain people don't have time to watch all 4 quarters,So they leave at halftime, or don't enter the stadium until the 3rd quarter. David Stern wants them to experience everything so he decides to accommodate for them by making it only 2 quarters,This would be false and forces everyone else to only experience two quarters. I'm against this philosophy. now it fits their schedule, their lifestyle.Which is good, but they could've chosen to experience the amount of the game that satiated their interests. Now being an avid basketball fan, I now have 2 less quarters to watchIn your fantastical hypothetical situation. When it never needed to be like that and the metaphor your making doesn't apply properly to the argument I'm making. thus my immersion is being cut in half.It's more like: A basketball game has four quarters, your friends leave during the second quarter and get the highlights the next day of the outcome. You're mad because your friends left you hanging in the wind, but instead of being mad at your friends your mad at Stadium security for allowing them to leave during the game. I experience half of what I could, I'mma feel cheated!That's why we're retaining the option for you to experience content. You have to choose to do that yourself. No one, not a single person, not a single post, has advocated for the abolition of airship rides and chocobos because they'd take too long. Only the opposite argument has been made. The opposite argument was made from the outset. I'm defying said argument. Please, don't get too technical man, it's just an analogy.A very poor one. I don't need to get technical with it. It's a horrible analogy and I've provided a better one.

Traveling affects the immersion of being in a massive open game world. No other type of immersion (that I can think of right now) is immediately affected. Engaging content. When you ask that airships just be a method of transport and don't suggest actual legitimate content to accompany them you're negating the chance of introducing engaging content. If people are engaged they are immersed. That is the only objective thing we can say about immersion. The sleep metaphor is irrelevant because it's not related to the size of the world.It's related to the experience of the content, which is what I've always been arguing. Regardless of if I watch him sleep or not doesn't affect the feeling of how vast the world is.Precisely. It doesn't effect it. The planet earth is not actually smaller just because we can take a photograph of it from outer space. The planet Earth is not actually smaller because we're having this conversation or we could call each other on the phone. It's a misappropriation when people say that the, "world is smaller". It's not technologies fault for connecting us, it's the individuals fault for not experiencing what the world has to offer. Thats why you can't use my argument on it. I wouldn't because your argument makes no sense. Not form a societal standpoint, not from a game design standpoint, not from an immersion standpoint. I still don't see why your being redundant in using it against my points.Because it applies to immersion and the level thereof. Different mediums enact different ways in order to tell a story. You don't need the medium to mimic real life in order for it to be immersive. It's even worse when the option for the medium offers you more and you choose not to take it. You could read my "Infinite Jest" metaphor that I posted earlier in this thread but I'll paraphrase it here. "Infinite Jest" is a very large fiction novel dealing with the themes of "amusing ourselves to death" and "instant gratification". The novel is nearly 1000 pages if not more, purposefully barring it from certain demographics, even among scholarly academics. There are extensive footnotes within the novel, some go on for pages, that go into more detail on the given situation. The reader can choose to read the story, or read the accompanying footnotes along with the story. The choice the reader makes defines what kind of person he/she is. In that very moment, when contrasting the themes in the book, the reader can contrast their own actions to what is being conveyed. This entails a huge depth of immersion, even by breaking the fourth wall, in a sense but it involves the reader to a heightened degree without actually breaking the fourth wall. It's all optional. Once again, the only type of immersion I'm talking about is the sense of scale in this world and what is affected by it, thus transportation topics. And it's not necessary when you've been given the option to experience that world or not. The key is that you are given the option to experience the game how you want to but you are forgoing that to complain about how others play the game. That's elitism at it's worst. It's almost childish, I don't mean it as name calling but I can only see this happening with a child. If I give a child an ice cream cone, and I give another child an ice cream cone, depending on the child, they will attempt to take the other child's ice cream cone. Do you not think this sort of behavior and mentatlity needs to be kept in check in order for us to thrive in a communal situation (MMOs)?

Off topic but...why do you provide unnecessary responses? Some of them are a given.
Like your response to when I said "We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless"I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to but more than likely it was to solidify or verify your point and add onto it. If it's in regards to your objective/subjectivity argument I'm merely pointing out that no one is referencing or making the argument that immersion is only objective....
It was as if I'm not aware? Obviously, if I stated above that you are immersed only when your playing the game, I am.You can also be immersed when you are not playing the game, but distinction need to be made further to objectively say whether or not someone is immersed in an activity or not. It seemed more of like a belittlement to my points/phrases instead of you trying to make an actual point to disparage mine.I have made endless points. I'm actually lost on what you're referring here, but I'm not doubting that arguing with you in particular has become rather trite. It's inevitable that belittling will make it's way into the argument. As I've stated before, I match rhetoric, I don't soar above it for the sake of manners. I'll go wherever you go. I don't need to be the bigger man, I'm more interested in my righteousness not my character. You do that throughout my paragraphs. Maybe I did that in yours?You may not have necessarily done that in mine but you'll do that to others. In the end of your response your rhetoric suggested you were trying to flip our roles as if I'm somehow tyrannically denying your right to immersion when this is a misappropriation and I've only offered well thought out constructive criticism and even catered to your interests in my "Future Airship Content Ideas" thread.

...going on...after that you got into how the traveling/distance/massiveness points I made aren't applicable because of how IT's are built into the lore. Yes. Can someone please link me to this lore? Yes, here it is. When you click this link make sure that you then click AETHERYTE in the bottom right hand corner. Bled blamed me for not linking him to the correct location when I specifically included instructions to do so.I can't respond without reading this first.

Till then.

I'll link the Infinite Jest metaphor here at a later time.

I've also already posted the motivations for why I post. Everything written has a purpose, none of it is worthless.