Lets nerf WAR :D

[Strident]

Can't I? I personally, don't want things to be designed for the lowest common denominator - hedging against the impeding tenuous conclusions. This is exactly what WoW did and while it was a fantastic business enterprise, it certainly destroyed the game for me, as I'm sure it did others.

As I said, it's a problem that runs far deeper than games. I won't necessarily blame SE for making a choice that does intend cater for the more lucrative player-base (not dedicated raiders in general then). Doesn't mean I have to agree. Despite the herpderps who think that WARs being unable to tank T4/5 as well as a PLD meant that they can't tank Garuda HM. Not the kind of people I think the tier designed for the highest performing players should be made with in mind

This isn't even getting into the fact you can't actually get around it anyway. Possibly hedge against, but ultimately someone (or somejob rather) has to sit.

You're right about one thing though. It is easy for me to say what I do, because it doesn't affect me.

Of course some class has to sit on the bench for World First, but that doesn't mean you can't have them be in contention. Lucrezia finishes A4S just 14 hours and 20 minutes after Elysium. They ran MCH instead of BRD, which tells me MCH and BRD were on comparable footing.

PLD however was not in any way, shape, or form in contention for World First (neither was AST, they finally got their fixes), and MNK has had their DPS buffed a decent amount. I can't speak on SMN except that they rock A2S, but otherwise I am not very knowledgeable in that regard.

The general point here is that ideally, we would want PLD to be at least capable of making similar progress in the clear as opposed to being outright forsaken altogether. And we would want this to be true for most encounters, without limiting the encounter design to a general core formula which would reduce the game's complexity. I certainly don't think that tight DPS checks will be going anywhere in the near future. The philosophy for addressing that is that all tanks must be capable of pushing a similar amount of total damage.

There are many ways to increase total damage, which I differentiate from personal DPS. An example of personal DPS is Fell Cleave, while something generally not included in that personal DPS would be something like Battle Litany, AKA raid utility. However, there are other ways to increase total damage without granting flat buffs like mitigating more damage so that healers can put out more DPS in your place. Another would be removing hard enrages and implementing several soft enrages, such that a more defensive tank (PLD) gets a longer time frame to clear the encounter thanks to more mitigation, just increasing the total damage dealt over the DPS in a smaller time frame.

I personally think WAR is overpowered, but I don't entirely believe that nerfing WAR is the only valid solution to solving tank woes, citing Fending Accessories as an example. In this regard, if mitigation checks become hard enough such that tanks actually had to wear their fending accessories, and that fending accessories stopping sucking because of PAR, then the DPS gap between WAR, PLD, and DRK will shorten as obviously WAR scales very well with more damage than mitigation.

[RocheKat]

Could the world first A4S groups have done it without a warrior? How many groups have cleared A4S with a Drk and a Pld?

The answer to those two questions will probably clear up the question of tank balance and just because SE says there is balance doesn't mean they actually believe it. They told us in 2.0 that Warrior was fine and then they went on to give War a bunch of buffs. Look it up... war 2.0 vs 2.1. Pretty sure no other class/job has seen that many big buffs.

I am also wondering why people are not just bringing two warriors?

[RapBreon]

Snip

From my understanding BRD and MCH are the two best balanced classes relative to one another. They are also the most similar in every regard. Something that was complained about quite a lot.

I can personally attest to the fact that MCH being so similar to BRD disappointed me. But at least it was easy to fill the 'mana battery' slot.

I agree with some of your suggestions however. It should ideally be competitive, but it should bring something other than what WAR (and DRKs to an extent) bring. Maybe not directly DPS related, but something useful enough so that the DPS or healers can pick up that slack. Ultimately, depending on the demands and the difficulty of the fight; it will always favour certain set-ups over others. Hopefully Yoshi's team can fix PLDs kit being particularly underwhelming for the tier...next tier! Because as of now it doesn't matter (due to gear).

[TheLastRaven]

It's a good alternative suggestion. Maybe not all nerfs or not what OP suggested specifically but its another option we'll have to see what pld buffs are in 3.1 and see if they even help.

[Duelle]

I am also wondering why people are not just bringing two warriors?

The limit break bar penalty for stacking jobs.

[RapBreon]

The limit break bar penalty for stacking jobs.

I actually didn't know this was how they discouraged it.

+1 for info.

[Dererk]

WAR already was a strong dps tank before their dps stance right? Wasn't adding one to them a bit over kill?

[Gooner_iBluAirJGR]

Nerfs

I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

[RocheKat]

The limit break bar penalty for stacking jobs.

I assumed that was the issue and honestly if this is the only reason people are not stacking warriors then warriors probably are the problem. To me it sounds like Warrior doesn't have a real weakness. They can mitigate just as well as the other tanks, they have more damage than they do, and they have one of the best raid debuffs in the game. Not factoring in slashing since you can bring a ninja to deal with that.

I actually didn't know this was how they discouraged it.

+1 for info.

This was done back when Pld and Brd stacking was common... before brd got nerfs and War got buffs. Just about every coil group had two paladins and two bards.

[Jamillion]

I just came here to say, you shut your filthy mouth