Please stop asking for paladin DPS buffs.

[SpookyGhost]

Due to there being an 8man comp for end game raiding and only being able to bring 2 tanks with 3 available, all tanks need to do the following the same:

1. Mitigate damage
2. Deal damage

Anything beyond that can be whatever you want it to be - that's where the lack of homogenzation comes in. Hell, you can even diversify HOW they mitigate/deal damage just as long as they still mitigate/deal the same amount. I really don't care if PLD or DRK are doing the same DPS as WAR, it literally doesn't matter. Unless one tank is lagging behind the others in those 2 categories, they are fine for any and all content - currently, PLD is lagging behind in the latter. WAR used to lag behind in the former before 2.1. These two things need to be homogenized and people would be a lot happier.

[OPneedNerfs]

.

THANK YOU. Someone who gets it.

It's not homogenization to be able to tank/deal damage as well as the other tanks.

Homogenization will never happen. Unless 2 jobs play EXACTLY the same.

The way people like the TS like to blanket an "increase of DPS" as homogenization is false and extremely misleading.

People aren't asking for the way PLDs to deal damage be the same exact way WARs and DRKs do. They aren't asking for a darkside aura, carve&spit, fell cleave and everything right down to the rotations being carbon copies.

TRUE Homogenization is something that is only a fantasy and will NEVER happen unless they copy-paste an entire job's toolkit (damage/utility/survival) into another and just changing the name. Even with some similar skills, as long as the way different jobs play differently, homogenization will be non-existent.

In closing, TS, if you feel that the current tanks play the same to the point you feel that they are 1 step from being TRULY homogenized, I can only say that you don't understand those jobs at all.

[Freyyy]

snip

Your first posts didn't sound like that at all. You were speaking as if you wanted homogenization, you never said that it was a fantasy or such things. I agree with your last post and what SpookyGhost said tho, as long as the jobs don't play the same, I wouldn't be bothered about them having the same tools. As long as the way to use these tools are different, it's fine. It's just that the OP was not saying that we need to revert WAR to 2.0 or to let the PLD stay as it is for the sake of being different, he never said that and you put words in his mouth. We need balance, but it could be done in more imaginative ways than what the majority of players are proposing. I'd be OK if they just increased PLD damage, but it would sound a bit lazy to me.

[Blueskyy]

Your first posts didn't sound like that at all. You were speaking as if you wanted homogenization, you never said that it was a fantasy or such things. I wouldn't be bothered about them having the same tools. As long as the way to use these tools are different, it's fine. We need balance, but it could be done in more imaginative ways than what the majority of players are proposing. I'd be OK if they just increased PLD damage, but it would sound a bit lazy to me.

Yea, i think the same way too. Just increasing PLD dps is upright lazy implementation and short sighted. Eg, making drg having lesser M.def than all other jobs for lore wise while releasing end game raids that deals so much m.attack making drg unable to go to raids is a bad design on SE part. Enrage timer is also a bad design to be re cycled so often while some jobs will be rejected for it's lack of dps. Right now the end game raid is SO dps based that you will see some jobs being rejected. To me, now that there is 3 tanks. As a player you should be at least playing 2 like what many mage players do in 2.0 so that it'll mitigate the problem for a period of time until SE find a suitable solution for it and not just buff dps. I blame SE partly for changing a job because alot people wanted it to be changed in this way. Resulting in petitions like what is happening right now

[Rustangel]

People aren't asking for the way PLDs to deal damage be the same exact way WARs and DRKs do.

Yes, they are. That's the whole point of this thread. You must have missed the billion threads filled with suggestions that PLD should have a thing "like Grit" or their Oaths should work "kind of like Warrior but with a different holy looking particle effect". Read the forum, they aren't hard to find.

TRUE Homogenization is something that is only a fantasy and will NEVER happen unless <snip>

You're wrong. I've seen it happen. Which is again, the point of my post. Paladin and Warrior in WoW Wrath were exactly the way you describe - "similar skills" with different names and animations, and enough surface differences to allow people like you to say, as a technicality, that they were therefore not homogenized. I'm talking about core mechanical differences (eg. Paladins in TBC tanking with spell damage and warriors using Str). These core differences are vital and must be maintained and emphasised, while ensuring that all 3 tanks are roughly equally effective.

[Synestra]

Due to there being an 8man comp for end game raiding and only being able to bring 2 tanks with 3 available, all tanks need to do the following the same:

1. Mitigate damage
2. Deal damage

Anything beyond that can be whatever you want it to be - that's where the lack of homogenzation comes in. Hell, you can even diversify HOW they mitigate/deal damage just as long as they still mitigate/deal the same amount. I really don't care if PLD or DRK are doing the same DPS as WAR, it literally doesn't matter. Unless one tank is lagging behind the others in those 2 categories, they are fine for any and all content - currently, PLD is lagging behind in the latter. WAR used to lag behind in the former before 2.1. These two things need to be homogenized and people would be a lot happier.

Pretty much this, basic stuff should be equal between all tanks but flavor should come from utility. This actually applies to healers and DD's aswell.

[RapBreon]

Pretty much this, basic stuff should be equal between all tanks but flavor should come from utility. This actually applies to healers and DD's aswell.

The two problems I have with that is;

1. The tank totem pole will just be governed by the utility they bring relative to the tier; it is the nature of haves and have-nots.

2. 'Class flavour' loses impact when they only look different. E.g. WARs are sold as the offensively minded brute, if a PLD was doing as much DPS as them it would certainly ruin the appeal for me. As I imagine for PLDs if the situation was reversed and WARs became the go-to invincible tank (which is the case currently? PLD mitigation not standing-out enough?).

I'd prefer SE to double down on that distinction - make PLDs even tankier (or supportierer) - then sprinkle in some fights where that mitigation makes the fight much, much easier (the same way WAR dps makes meeting an enrage easier). Instead of making the insane dude with a 2Handed axe do as much damage as the girl hiding behind his shield.

[Synestra]

1. The tank totem pole will just be governed by the utility they bring relative to the tier; it is the nature of haves and have-nots.

Well Warriors are already doing this with their SP, no sane group will do any serious raid content without WAR due this utility(on top of that they do amazing dps while having a good if not best migitation amongst all 3 tanks). That debuff blows away all other tank debuffs because it affects all damage done by boss not just magical or physical, even TA is not that good because it has limited uptime.

Currently you simply cannot replace warrior no matter what fight you are doing(well you can but that is just hindering your group), i wonder how DRK/PLD groups were doing in first weeks or even now? havent seen anyone mentioning using this setup in savage.

[RapBreon]

Well Warriors are already doing this with their SP, no sane group will do any serious raid content without WAR due this utility(on top of that they do amazing dps while having a good if not best migitation amongst all 3 tanks). That debuff blows away all other tank debuffs because it affects all damage done by boss not just magical or physical, even TA is not that good because it has limited uptime.

Currently you simply cannot replace warrior no matter what fight you are doing(well you can but that is just hindering your group), i wonder how DRK/PLD groups were doing in first weeks or even now? havent seen anyone mentioning using this setup in savage.

I agree, but you know as well as I do, WARs aren't considered OP because of SP; it's just another reason they dominate the scene. My point being that If they have equal mitigation and DPS, their value will be determined soley on the usage of their utility relative to the tier.

[SpookyGhost]

I agree, but you know as well as I do, WARs aren't considered OP because of SP; it's just another reason they dominate the scene. My point being that If they have equal mitigation and DPS, their value will be determined soley on the usage of their utility relative to the tier.

Which is fine, because it means that all tanks can do the content and just that some will be slightly better suited than others for certain aspects of certain fights. That's as close to balanced as you're going to get in an MMO, the only way to avoid that is to make every tank literally exactly the same with no utility, the same mitigation, and the same damage.