Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[karateorangutang]

I honestly hate the fact that tanks a class based on taking damage and helping keep the party alive is having to crank out dps. It seems its always for one of two reasons. I like being a tank if i wanted to dps I would play one of my dps classes

1. Every has to be doing tons of damage because if a dungeon takes 1 extra minute someone is gonna lose their s**t.

2. Progression/End Game Raiders have said you need to have all the extra damage for doing the end game raids and that translates to everyone doing the same thing even in low dungeons.

It's been repeatedly stated that in lower content and 4 mans you can faceroll it in any gear. If people are refusing to read that then that isn't the fault of people that are saying the STR gear is superior. Additionally, almost all advocates of STR gear are using a mix anyway, so this is just simple misinterpretation of the message. Noone is losing their shit for the extra minute, but if you can shave a minute off a run and not suffer any negatives then why wouldn't you?

The people that are not making good use of a certain setup are generally misinformed and can be taught. If we aren't teach them the limits of the gear and how they should be using it then we are doing them and ourselves a disservice. If you have a STR tank in your party do you watch their buffs on the pulls? Are they cycling cooldowns on trash mobs? They should be. If they aren't politely inform them. Alot of stuff can be fixed with just a gentle nudge.

[TheLastRaven]

It's been repeatedly stated that in lower content and 4 mans you can faceroll it in any gear. If people are refusing to read that then that isn't the fault of people that are saying the STR gear is superior. Additionally, almost all advocates of STR gear are using a mix anyway, so this is just simple misinterpretation of the message. Noone is losing their shit for the extra minute, but if you can shave a minute off a run and not suffer any negatives then why wouldn't you?

It is the fault of those people advocating it to an extent because of the way most games player base works if they see the top players doing so and so they will try to copy it regardless of the good or bad. As you said the message is not being conveyed properly so then its up to all the players especially the ones coming up with these things to get the facts right for the rest of the players. I see too many tanks using a full side of STR accessories but have multiple issues as every tank changes dungeon to dungeon. One will think he is the best tank ever and have no tanking stance but full STR acc and die repeatedly. One has no idea about this other than what they hear from other players in towns or FCs or something and they come in wearing STR and cannot perform their jobs properly. This even happens in Alexander where i have had WAR and DRK thinking they are amazing and pull the group only to die in 5 seconds due to lack of proper gearing and wearing STR of just not using CDs. Which is another thing not for this thread. So sorry if i ranted a bit.

I also have to say you cannot comment on whether or not people lose it over a dungeon taking a minute or two extra. Seeing as you have not had it happen to you where as it has happened to me numerous times. I don't doubt it has happened to others. A minute difference is not a big difference sure if you can save one or a few good, but not at the cost of badgering your party and being an A**hat.This almost always ends up causing the dungeon to take longer because someone couldn't have some patience. Just because you can does not mean you should always.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

It is the fault of those people advocating it to an extent because of the way most games player base works if they see the top players doing so and so they will try to copy it regardless of the good or bad. As you said the message is not being conveyed properly so then its up to all the players especially the ones coming up with these things to get the facts right for the rest of the players. I see too many tanks using a full side of STR accessories but have multiple issues as every tank changes dungeon to dungeon. One will think he is the best tank ever and have no tanking stance but full STR acc and die repeatedly. One has no idea about this other than what they hear from other players in towns or FCs or something and they come in wearing STR and cannot perform their jobs properly. This even happens in Alexander where i have had WAR and DRK thinking they are amazing and pull the group only to die in 5 seconds due to lack of proper gearing and wearing STR of just not using CDs. Which is another thing not for this thread. So sorry if i ranted a bit.

I also have to say you cannot comment on whether or not people lose it over a dungeon taking a minute or two extra. Seeing as you have not had it happen to you where as it has happened to me numerous times. I don't doubt it has happened to others. A minute difference is not a big difference sure if you can save one or a few good, but not at the cost of badgering your party and being an A**hat.This almost always ends up causing the dungeon to take longer because someone couldn't have some patience. Just because you can does not mean you should always.

Thats the issue. They are going a full way instead of a part way.

I am always in Tank Stance unless i'm just not getting hit or the boss is casting something and not attacking me. So most of the time i'm in Tanking Stance. I have full strength for that extra 27% damage and I always keep my damage buffs up. I do fine DPS.

However, when I go on my healer to heal strength tanks. They are NOT in Tank Stance a lot, and switch out often when they are going to get spiked, which is BAAAAD! (VERY BAD!)

I don't mind going to DPS stance to use a Fell Cleave twice. However get back to tank stance quick!

[karateorangutang]

snip

the short answer to your question is yes. It is their fault.

Taking a snippet of the knowledge and applying it without understanding its effects is ignorance. Whether or not that ignorance is innocent or if it's laziness isn't the fault of the playerbase, but the player itself. If people are trying that hard to emulate high lvl players then they are already researching its effects. If someone refuses to read the whole thing and the process fails because of their lack of knowledge then that is their fault.

For the second paragraph: Really?

At this point I have run well over a thousand dungeons. That's a pretty decent sample size. I have maybe once or twice a month somebody that has a bad attitude. Of those one or two maybe one of them even concerns the time spent in a dungeon. Additionally, I'm speaking from the perspective that your using accessories and performing the job the way it should be performed. A VIT tank cycling and stance swapping intelligently will out perform a STR tank. That's elementary logic... I bet anyone with a brain could figure that out.

I really don't know what your poking at here. If a tank has a good handle on his job and knows how to play and has proper gearing on the left side, they will perform better with STR accessories in most situations. There are no absolutes here, but most of the time with dungeons that I enter in DF STR accessories are more efficient than VIT ones.

[TheLastRaven]

Well if you had read you would know I am not saying it is completely their fault but it is theirs to a degree as I said but i don't think you read it. The lower players always follow what the higher level players do and a lot of them do not have the time to research or figure out all the finer points. You can't blame people for lack of time some of them don't play this game as a full time job. Where as the higher end players can clarify and explain things for other players in game and out they have plenty of chances but don't seem to use them.

Also where as i'm trying to explain my point you seem to be busy trying to insult the posters more specifically me.

That's elementary logic... I bet anyone with a brain could figure that out.

Where as I have not done that to you. So i suggest even if it wasn't the worst thing said you try to post in a way that does not make you seem like an A**hole. You're missing my point that people still over react to a delay in the completion of the dungeon be it a minute or more not every dungeon is gonna be fast. It happens enough to be a problem just because you experience it less than others doesn't make it less of an issue. You said that people are generally misinformed and can be taught so why is it an issue that I say that the end game raiders or whoever it is making these setups and figuring these things out also inform people properly or better? STR accesories can be and have been a factor in this not the sole factor but one of them and it would be a good thing to minimize incidents for everyone. I'm not poking at anything I think my points are clear.

TLDR: Everyone should try to inform and educate the player base so everyone can become a better player for themselves and to make the experience better for the whole. Have some more patience in general a bit of extra time won't kill you.

[karateorangutang]

snip

Yes, everyone should try to educate the player-base. Before your go off on a tangent of trying to make me seem like the bad guy let met reinform you of the nature of my post. Illustrating a point as elementary in nature is not being mean. It's driving a point on a medium where you can't use gestures and tones to drive a point. How you take it is up to you I suppose but there's really no reason to get worked up about it on a forum. If you go back and read all my posts I have never personally attacked anyone, even yourself, so if you think the spirit of my post was angry or mean-spirited then I apologize. It wasn't the intention.

Now onto the actual arguments that matter. All I have ever said from the very beginning is that STR accessories in a party where people are playing their jobs at an educated and medium to high level are generally the more efficient option. Player education isn't even a party of my argument. It's already assumed in the argument that people would know how to play their job.

I've also said, since the beginning, that if you are more comfortable with using VIT accessories then go for it. There is little to no reason in a 4 man dungeon to need STR accessories. Play the way you want, all I'm trying to say is that in a properly played dungeon STR accessories are more efficient. We, as a group, cannot base a theory off of only variables. That seems to be the common mistake here. You need a control to make the argument valid. For me that control is assuming that the players involved in the theory are both equal in skill and knowledgeable about the general functions and play mechanics of a dungeon/raid.

Once again to be clear. The argument isn't mean spirited or angry. I'm simply driving a point.

[Alahra]

The player education issue is something I wonder about a lot. I try to stay versed in most of the classes to some degree, and as a healer I find the STR/VIT thing of particular interest. While I see a lot of nuanced discussion of the merits of STR tanking on the forums, I've never really seen those nuanced discussions in the game itself. When it comes up there, it's usually an all or nothing thing with most tanks I've met, especially raid-level tanks. That attitude does seem to trickle down to the rest of the playerbase, since most players don't rely on the forums for their information and gearing. They ask someone they know.

Tanks are also in a weird spot when it comes to gearing. When comparing gear for all other classes, player skill doesn't really matter, nor does group skill (with a small exception for Piety for healers, as healing is a rather...idiosyncratic exercise, and enough mana for one healer might not be enough for another). If someone asks you what stats to stack for MNK, you can say Crit and Det, and skill or experience doesn't really factor into the question at all.

That's not so for tanks, but it seems that people are used to having the easy answer, since so much of the rest of the game's gearing is so simple.