Tanks, please use strength gear.. :(

[Kosmos992k]

It's not a matter of telling people to play like he wants them too; it's a matter if playing correctly.
You wouldn't let a DD get away with stacking vit.
Why should a tank?

Um...because our *job* isn't killing things faster, it's taking damage meant for others so that those more suited to killing things faster can get on with it. You want to talk playing correctly? Look at the descriptions of the jobs and classes, look at the skill sets and the stats our gear gives. Tanks are not DDs.

[JackFross]

Tanks are not DDs.

Yes, but why not? In my personal opinion, a tank has the most jobs of anyone. They're the most responsible for party mechanics as OT (because their dps/uptime on the boss matters WAY less than melee), they're responsible for surviving a lot of damage done to them (mostly through proper cooldown rotations, tuned to the content) and THEN, once you're doing all of that, doing as much damage you can WHILE dealing with what was mentioned before.

It's what separates the tanks you say are "good enough" from the ones that are "great." You want to push those first two bits as tight as possible. Survive things with as little room for error as you possibly can. The more skilled you are at your job, the less health you need to bring to survive those big hits. When your Paladin in A1S is aces at popping cooldowns for the tank busters, you're ALREADY getting 20%x40% reduction for 2 of them, and you take literally 0 from the other (and mitigate the proceeding cleave by 20%) not including Shield Oath's bonus. If you have enough health to slip through without dying with that much mitigation (which isn't hard if your healer(s) aren't sleeping), you don't NEED more. At that point, why are you running extra? All it does is make you fluffier. It does very little to improve survival.

It comes down to skill and knowledge of a fight. The better you know it, the fewer mistakes you'll make. When you make fewer mistakes, you need less breathing room. With less breathing room comes more opportunity to do things such as running less VIT and being out of tank stance more to bring more utility to the raid by cutting down time on the fight. It's not a requirement, by any means, but it's the only way to up your game when you're already clearing content cleanly as a tank.


If you're not constantly looking to get better, be better, and do better, what are you doing, really?

[Kosmos992k]

If you're not constantly looking to get better, be better, and do better, what are you doing, really?

Yes, but this evaluation of 'better' is entirely dependent on "MOAR DEEPS". That's great for DD classes, but tanks should (IMHO) be evaluated/judged on things other than DEEPS... When you adopt the stance you seem to have, you are effectively telling tanks that focus on being tankier that they are bad at their job. Not very friendly IMHO.

[ArdorGrey]

Yes, but this evaluation of 'better' is entirely dependent on "MOAR DEEPS". That's great for DD classes, but tanks should (IMHO) be evaluated/judged on things other than DEEPS... When you adopt the stance you seem to have, you are effectively telling tanks that focus on being tankier that they are bad at their job. Not very friendly IMHO.

It doesn't sound like you're listening to Jacks whole elaborate point. Rather you're whittling it down to the fact that it runs contrary to your perception of what a tank is and should do and saying that makes it a hostile point. It isn't, so I'll reiterate:

Doing things like stacking vit doesn't actually make you any tankier, it just gives you more room for more error. If you are already surviving incoming damage without inconveniencing your healer, if you are already maximizing your defensive cooldowns, the only room for further improvement is to hone the part of your kit that you seem to be willfully overlooking.

You can say it's terrible game design if you like, but it's the way tanks are designed in this, and by spurning it you are kneecapping your contribution to your party, assuming you have already mastered handling your defensive abilities.

[Kosmos992k]

It doesn't sound like you're listening to Jacks whole elaborate point.

I'm listening, I can do the math just like everyone else. However, I'm not currently, nor will I be, running in any serious End-game content. Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

Play a healer? Better bloody well be able to put out good DPS. Playing tank, better have good DPS. MT? Better have decent DPS. DD job? Better have great DPS. If I wanted to play a game where every job/class worked the same and focused on one thing, and one thing alone - DPS, then I'd be playing something like GW2.

Forgive me for being old-fashioned or stubborn, but a tank is not and never has been a primarily DPS focused roll. There should be no expectation or requirement for tank (or healer) DPS in any content except for cutting edge Progression where the DPS checks may require that. The description of my job talked about the use of the sword and shield like it was a dance, the materia I used to fashion my relic weapon was battle dance materia. Parry is dripping from almost every piece of gear I can roll on. Everything the game does is telling me to be tankier, and not focus on STR and DPS.

One of the most negative changes to FFXIV that came with HW is the far greater emphasis on "moar deeps" over and above all other things. It makes the game feel very one dimensional.

True, true, no tank can contribute meaningful DPS unless they're WAR. Also, every WHM/AST asked to DPS or perform better should have gone SCH.

Well, putting my own sarcasm aside, that does in fact appear to be the message that the community - especially end-game - is sending.

[CGMidlander]

I'm listening, I can do the math just like everyone else. However, I'm not currently, nor will I be, running in any serious End-game content. Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

It's "moar deeps" because, "why not?"
With how combat is in FFXIV currently, the means to do so are readily available.

[JackFross]

Honestly the whittling down I keep reading is whittling everything down to one thing, and one thing only "MOAR DEEPS".

Except, it isn't.

What I'm saying is that if you really want to maximize the tank role, you should be attempting to ride the line as tight as possible. Be just tanky enough to clear the content you're running. If you're superfluously tanky, that's totally fine. You're allowed to play that way, the game works just fine, you can clear things just fine, it doesn't make a difference. All I'm talking about is maximizing the class you're playing.

It's the same thing as when you discuss a healing class. Once you're at the point where your healing rotation is so rote and perfect that, assuming 0 mess ups from the dps, you keep everyone alive and the content is cleared, you WILL find patches where all you're doing is standing still and admiring how awesome you are. These windows, once they start presenting themselves, can be - if your goal is to maximize your class - filled with dps skills. Because, honestly, why not? What else are you doing to help the party then? Standing still and prepping an emergency heal that can be popped just as easily by dropping cleric and casting it, canceling your now-ineffective dps skill?

And that's the difference. It's not about people saying "you should bring more dps" it's about people pushing others to excel at their class, rather than just play it. Yes, everyone has fun their own way. I'm not here to tell you to stop playing the way you enjoy. I'm here to explain to you my point of view.

Once you do your job well enough to get shit done, all that's left is to look for ways to improve.

For tanks, improving means riding the line and figuring out the bare minimum mitigation you *need* to survive an encounter. As you work toward this, you will naturally see an increase in how much damage you deal.

For healers, improving means locking healing down so tight that you open little windows of downtime to throw out your dots and maybe cast a big damage spell once or twice before the healing starts again. This, again, naturally brings about a boost to your dps, since it's the best utility you can bring to the party when your heals are already good enough.

For dps, improving means maximizing cooldown usage, squeezing extra gcds in where you can, keeping dots flowing, finding ways to boost your numbers in every way you possibly can - because the base job of a dps in raid content is to properly handle mechanics to push toward a clear and their secondary job is to maximize damage output while doing so.


It's almost as if this trend is just readily apparent across all jobs. Once you do your main job well enough to win, you look for ways to maximize the way you do it. This just naturally leads to you increasing how much damage you deal.

[Sleigh]

Yes, but this evaluation of 'better' is entirely dependent on "MOAR DEEPS". That's great for DD classes, but tanks should (IMHO) be evaluated/judged on things other than DEEPS... When you adopt the stance you seem to have, you are effectively telling tanks that focus on being tankier that they are bad at their job. Not very friendly IMHO.

There's not much you can do beyond a certain point for survival. Just use your CDs appopriately, survive the tank busters, otherwise mitigate as much as you can without jeopardizing tank buster survival. It's not too hard or complex, and ultimately just doing this is not useful to a group. It's useful in the sense that you are finishing the survival check but what about the party-wide DPS check? Or killing a boss so fast that you have to get healed that much less?

Funny thing is, in a dungeon boss, a PLD going Sword Oath with full STR gear on, is going to fulfill his survival role almost as well as a Shield Oath PLD with full VIT on. Will the Sword PLD have much less eHP on paper? Yep. Will he ever actually need all of it? Nope, even if a healer is DPSing a lot. I dare say the PLD with Sword Oath is doing his job more effectively in terms of survival, because the fight is going to end that much quicker, requiring less MP and mechanics done that could endanger the party.

[Kosmos992k]

Funny thing is, in a dungeon boss, a PLD going Sword Oath with full STR gear on, is going to fulfill his survival role almost as well as a Shield Oath PLD with full VIT on. Will the Sword PLD have much less eHP on paper? Yep. Will he ever actually need all of it? Nope, even if a healer is DPSing a lot. I dare say the PLD with Sword Oath is doing his job more effectively in terms of survival, because the fight is going to end that much quicker, requiring less MP and mechanics done that could endanger the party.

If I wanted to play that way I would have gone Warrior.

[Sleigh]

If I wanted to play that way I would have gone Warrior.

True, true, no tank can contribute meaningful DPS unless they're WAR. Also, every WHM/AST asked to DPS or perform better should have gone SCH.