Save the Armory system

[Vanguard319]

As I understand it, classes will not disappear, the job system is meant to be an addition to the armoury system that allows a player to assume a more defined role in a party. I only have one question in regards to this however, if I am tossing the occasional cure to the tank as an archer while on a dungeon run, and playing the hybrid DD/backup healer effectively and skillfully, why then would I want to be a job where the only thing I can do is heal and nothing else? As Renshi said, it may be better to wait and see how SE implements the system before we pick it apart, though I am hoping they considered the question I just posed.

[Konachibi]

As I understand it, classes will not disappear, the job system is meant to be an addition to the armoury system that allows a player to assume a more defined role in a party. I only have one question in regards to this however, if I am tossing the occasional cure to the tank as an archer while on a dungeon run, and playing the hybrid DD/backup healer effectively and skillfully, why then would I want to be a job where the only thing I can do is heal and nothing else? As Renshi said, it may be better to wait and see how SE implements the system before we pick it apart, though I am hoping they considered the question I just posed.

I think this is basically what people are picking at. If you're going to be the Archers resultant job, you won't be able to cast Cure anymore, ditto if you're playing a White Mage, you can't use Black Mage spells or Archery skills. It removes a lot of the customisability that we have now with classes, but gives you a more centered and singular purpose in battle. It's both a good thing and a bad thing.

If there's no significant boost in the damage of the archery resultant job though, I don't see a problem with just sticking with your hybrid damage-backup healer build. You may not get the extra skills involved from not using a job, but you're still extremely usefull in a group, and anyone who didn't think so would be pretty dumb :3

I think really the best idea would be to impliment jobs the way they plan to but when making content, build it so that your group doesn't have to take on jobs to do it effectively, allow them to continue using the base-classes and customisability involved with them, that way if you want to use a job you can, if you'd rather have a mixture of skills, you can be a hybrid, you won't nerf yourself by 'not' using something. That way it'd keep the larger majority of players happy as they get choice and aren't being forced into doing something they don't want to do.

Also from something I read a while back, SE were planning on something like 30 classes in this game, 30 classes will result also in 30 jobs, if each class gets a job assigned to it. That's a whole lot of different weaponry, play-styles and hybrids to take into account, if they do follow through with such an extensive amount of classes. Only time will tell :3

[Verecund]

As usual, the problem with many things in this game is the actual implementation rather than the concept. Despite the Armoury system's focus on personal choice of specialization, there actually aren't enough unique choices available to really let the system shine. Also, more depth in the character progression systems already inherent in the game (i.e. guildmarks) would definitely help give more flesh to the Armory system's bones.

I would argue that, instead of spending development time taking a step backwards by reforming the Armoury system into a Jobs system, more resources be spent on further developing the depth in the current system as well as developing more or better methods of character progression to accommodate the current system.

(It goes without saying that even if time were spent to reform the Armoury system into a Jobs system, additional time would still be needed in the future to add more depth to the Jobs system since the current amount in the game at present is, in my opinion, insufficient. It is also my belief that the Armory system has more promise )

[Xmbei]

They are not, I repeat NOT, reforming the armory system INTO a job system... They are adding a Job System to specialize the already implemented Class system... It's a specialization it's not a revamp.

[Vanguard319]

You wouldn't see a Gladiator wielding a magical staff and a wand.

You wouldn't see a Botanist trying to log trees with a fishing rod.

Not to run by stereotypes but I couldn't really picture a Paladin in full plate armour taking pot-shots at a marmot with a bow and arrow either.

People expect thieves to use daggers and paladins to use swords and shields and archers to use bows and arrows and miners to use mining axes etc. Because really, that's what makes them what they are, sure some diversity with the style of weaponry would be nice, like Paladins being able to use an array of 1-handed weapon types such as maces, swords and axes, heck, in the case of Gladiators they can already do this, being able to wield just a sword, a sword and shield, or a dagger with/without shield. SE haven't said anything about jobs not being able to use a small variety of similarly based weaponry.

If you try to make jobs seperate from the class system though you're just going to turn them into yet more classes. Biggest problem with that is even though it'll operate as if it were a seperate class it'll still have many of the same abilities, skills and spells as another class, which will RETRACT from the games diversity, not improve it. A 180 degree sweeping strike is a 180 degree sweeping strike, no matter what name you give it, if two classes can do a move that's too similar, one of those classes loses a tiny amount of it's appeal. Plus it'd be pretty annoying if a Paladin had just one move you'd like your Gladiator to have, so you have to rank up Paladin for days/weeks, doing all the same attacks and using the same weaponry types, just to gain that one ability.

So yeah the idea I had earlier today with the whole *going to menu, selecting job, click apply* would be nice, but if I were playing a Gladiator and switched to a Paladin, I'd expect it to be pretty much the same stuff, since they use the same weapons, wear the same armour, both use shields etc.

As for roles, Conjurers wear cloth, cloth is notoriously not good at absorbing an incoming blow from a very large and angry dragon, you couldn't make a conjurer into a tank, so it can only be used as DD or Healer... whaddya know, that's exactly what they do already. Gladiators have heavy armour, can take a beating, but have really low MP, you wouldn't want a Gladiator as your healer as he'd run out of mana almost instantly, so he's only good for DD and tanking. Weeeell whaddya know, that's exactly what he already does.

You talk about locking classes in roles using jobs, as if they aren't already to quite a degree. These 'limitation's' you say are coming with jobs already exist, the only reason you're arguing about it now is that jobs pointed out their limitations as well as their advancement. They said "We can't do this anymore, BUT we're absolutely awesome at doing THIS!" and instead of you going "ooo yay they can do this" you went "oh no they can't do that", ignoring the fact that to some extent their class-equivalent wasn't exactly any good at doing 'that' in the first place.

I guess you never played FFXI, Paladins in that game (and red mages for that matter) could equip bows and use them, there were also NPCs who were dual class Pld/Rng, essentially a tank class that could hold hate through high damage as well as through emnity skills. (I even played Pld/Dnc in a few parties with some success, and I was also known for sometimes using greatswords rather than a sword/shield)

The biggest problem in XI was that even though the job system looked like it had flexibilty, the moment players DECIDED what role a job should be, you were treated like a retard if you dared to play it differently. Ninja went from DD to Tank, Samurai went from tank to DD, Red Mage was forced to sit in the back and toss refresh and pretty much nothing else, completely making the fact it was a multi-role FRONT-line job moot (I guarantee Dancer would have befallen the same fate if it's dances didn't require TP.) Parties were made or broken based on who had what, and I've been in parties that ended as soon as one person had to leave, simply because there wasn't enough flexibility among jobs to continue. Even worse, some jobs were almost impossible to level without resorting to highly risky methods, or waiting for hours, if not days for a party invite (I sympathize with any Thf, Drk, or Blm reading this who understands what I'm getting at.)

In short, the job system in FFXI is an example of what should be avoided in FFXIV, any job system should be flexible enough that it doesn't require you to form a specific type of party just to level up. You should be able to form an effective party with whatever classes are available, that means jobs should have some degree of flexibility. Gld may be considered the best tank, but Pgl and Mrd are no slouches in that department. Likewise, a Gld can play a good DD if required to do so. the only class that is exclusively a single role is Archer, and even it can play the support/healing role with the right gear and cross-class skills set.

Since the job system is being designed to complement, rather than replace the armoury system, it sounds like it won't be like XI. Still, we'll have to wait and see before we can make a final judgment.

[Konachibi]

I guess you never played FFXI, Paladins in that game (and red mages for that matter) could equip bows and use them, there were also NPCs who were dual class Pld/Rng, essentially a tank class that could hold hate through high damage as well as through emnity skills. (I even played Pld/Dnc in a few parties with some success, and I was also known for sometimes using greatswords rather than a sword/shield)

The biggest problem in XI was that even though the job system looked like it had flexibilty, the moment players DECIDED what role a job should be, you were treated like a retard if you dared to play it differently. Ninja went from DD to Tank, Samurai went from tank to DD, Red Mage was forced to sit in the back and toss refresh and pretty much nothing else, completely making the fact it was a multi-role FRONT-line job moot (I guarantee Dancer would have befallen the same fate if it's dances didn't require TP.) Parties were made or broken based on who had what, and I've been in parties that ended as soon as one person had to leave, simply because there wasn't enough flexibility among jobs to continue. Even worse, some jobs were almost impossible to level without resorting to highly risky methods, or waiting for hours, if not days for a party invite (I sympathize with any Thf, Drk, or Blm reading this who understands what I'm getting at.)

In short, the job system in FFXI is an example of what should be avoided in FFXIV, any job system should be flexible enough that it doesn't require you to form a specific type of party just to level up. You should be able to form an effective party with whatever classes are available, that means jobs should have some degree of flexibility. Gld may be considered the best tank, but Pgl and Mrd are no slouches in that department. Likewise, a Gld can play a good DD if required to do so. the only class that is exclusively a single role is Archer, and even it can play the support/healing role with the right gear and cross-class skills set.

Since the job system is being designed to complement, rather than replace the armoury system, it sounds like it won't be like XI. Still, we'll have to wait and see before we can make a final judgment.

I did try to play FFXI, as a Thief infact, and spent most of my time either dead or extremely confused. When I saw how some classes could be mixed/matched I thought it a clever idea, I was gonna grab White Mage as my secondary class so I could spend more time just being confused and less time being dead.

But yeah I did mention this earlier, players in the game will start to dictate what classes they want and don't want, and treat people like idiots for playing in their own certain way instead of what elitists think is 'right' and 'wrong', I saw exactly the same thing in Warcraft and found it totally disgusting. A Warlock was just as effective at doing damage as a Mage, but everyone wanted a Mage because their over-glorifying' made them look superior, and people laughed at fire mages just because they were fire and not arcane. Tanking is tanking, damage is damage and healing is healing, it doesn't matter what class or job they're doing it with, if they're capable of doing it, don't knock them for it.

Wishfull thinking...

[Davorok]

... perhaps this is SE's chance to actually allow players to use multiple weapons with their job rather than limiting players yet again.

I'm all for having more choices and perhaps SE could implement Job/EX weapons that Jobs can use for special situations or for soloing. Maybe a Paladin would want to use a Lance for a certain effect or on a specific mob. (They could do this by simply not referring to the Lance as a Lance in the .dat files so as not to screw up weapon skills & abilities).

But, keep in mind that if you are in a party, as main tank, using a Lance, taking way too much damage, causing the mages to burn through MP, causing the PT downtime and thus hurting the exp/hr...they will drop you and reform the party with a Paladin who uses a shield.

Like I've said before, they can make a game where we can do anything - be anything, but when it comes to hardcore partying, there will always be pressure to conform and our choices will be limited by peer pressure if not by the game design itself.

[Madruk]

I'm not even sure what the job system is going to offer in terms of unique abilities that are must haves other than the obvious paladin soaks more damage and the blm/whm take less mp for their respective spells. Those aren't really class defining. I understand the need for classes to be more defined but what else can they give in terms of uniqueness when most of the spells and abilities from the FF universe are already in game.

[Gramul]

Okay, I'll make this short and simple.

1. We gave the okay to "welcome changes to FINAL FANTASY XIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea"
2. People where dissatisfied by the lack of distinct classes, so they added the job system.
2. The old system isn't going anywhere, we're just getting an additional system better suited for team play like other games.
3. character class customization is better suited for single player gameplay. In multilayer, you have to deal with explaining what your character can and cant do and what sort of team dynamic you have to set up to accomplish goals based on what abilities characters have. That means taking time to question and discuss specific class setups, time that could be used playing the game.
4. It works great in other games and you're not restricted to one job.
5. Job system is still in development and there's plenty that can still be done with it, even before it's implemented later this (next?) year.
6. We gave the okay to "welcome changes to FINAL FANTASY XIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea"

[User201109011315]

Everyone is free to utilize the Class System to play solo or in small groups however they see fit.

Everyone will be expected to fulfill a Role (Job) in a Large Party, whether it be a grind party or esp. a Boss Fight.

Some PT's might be more lenient on Class Abilities/Jobs but the bottom line is that this IS an MMO not a Single-player RPG, therefore we all eventually have to conform to whatever standards are deemed optimal for Party-based-play.

Do whatever you want to do by yourself. No one is stopping you.

SE can implement jobs without destroying their flagship feature.