Super General Discussion 2.0 - Always offering a happy, fun time~!

[Sylkis]

Yes, i agree that there is too much focus on DPS, but mostly from the pressure placed on “me” from other players rather than the DPS Checks that SE has added to the end game content.

I believe that this is because of the DPS checks in endgame, top raiders will say how high DPS is necessary to clear (which is true for endgame). The players that tune in to these comments will then pass on this belief to others, and at some point people will believe it applies to the whole game.
Something like:
If you don't have X dps you can't clear endgame (truth)
-> If you don't have X dps you can't clear endgame and therefore are bad
-> If you don't have X dps you are bad

I think that the impatient behaviour comes from having to repeat the dungeons weekly and trying to get it over with as soon as possible.
This is what happens when people do things they don't want to do but they need to do... they get grumpy...its like working.
I blame it on expert roulette being the most efficient way to obtain tomes, and tomes are like money. Like real jobs, you choose between fun and low wages or unfun and high wages ... and most people choose the latter.
But it doesn't have to be that way! Just make multiple content equally efficient in tomes and people will rotate between content so they won't feel like that ... too quickly.

I think capping tomes to do endgame is really unhealthy for the players.

I’m a Paladin and it’s the class i’ve been taking to Coil since i joined the static. There are quite a few times where people would tell me that i might as well use Warrior, because it was the better tank for <Insert Random Turn here…>. However, i soldiered on. I basically learned how to tank by traversing through Coil. I’ve been laughed at for using vit gear with parry. But, i didn’t care because i firmly believed that it can be done with a Paladin.

At (current) endgame, it really is that. If you don't have X DPS, the boss explodes and you can't pass until you have geared up as a PLD by waiting a few weeks... OR switch to a higher DPS tank.
PLD would be better if tanks couldn't survive very well with lowest possible gear, but it seems that all the tanks can survive on day 1.

Yes, you can do it on PLD or anything after enough time.
But it's really depressing if you love your job but your team has to wait because the boss explodes because your job doesn't do enough DPS, unless your team started raiding late.

First coil wasn't like this! But the top raiders have gotten better at the game since then (clearing final coil in the first week) so they lazily added hard DPS checks...sigh

I guess this depends on who you are asking. When it comes to tanking on my Paladin, mitigating the tank busters is a very important job, but certainly not the only thing that determines the difficulty of the class nor the content.

Maintaining hate is also a difficult job.

Paladins have the lowest hate generation out of the tanks so its not surprising. I get around this by pulling multiple groups so it forces others to use AoE, or play WAR haha...
This isn't an issue with coordination, but DF players will not do so unless necessary. They will have seen a WAR or DRK keep hate fine, and expect PLD to generate the same amount of hate and blame the tank if they don't.

This also depends on the tank you are healing. For instance, my Paladin currently has 18k HP, so it would be good if the healer can dish out 3k Heals with a Cure 1. I’ve also healed a lot of dungeons and i’ve noticed is that one tank is being hit harder (with hits dealing over 4k damage) then another tank. Resulting in the fact that i have to heal him with Cure 1’s and Cure 2’s to keep him/her alive.

Although, i’m not sure what you mean by “causing more downtime” within that paragraph.

By this I mean when I play, I very rarely use cure 1 - only cure2/instant skills and holy/gravity (or only lustrate/fairy for dungeons). It gets the tank to full in 3 seconds then I have nothing to do (and no MP problems), so I go back to DPS...
In other games it either takes a long time to heal someone back to full (even when they aren't taking damage) or it costs a lot of MP, meaning I have to think harder about the healing.

In endgame (I use SCH) I do use cure 1/physick sometimes, but still far more DPS skills than real healing so its still the same... For coil during 2.0 it was even worse: just stay cleric stance the whole time and only lustrate+fairy skills and adlo for tank buster... The real problem is that just this kept the tank alive for the whole run and I don't think it should!

I really hope that the FFXIV is currently creating new types of (battle) content for us to participate in. But, they can go a long way by introducing something like random events within existing duties like dungeons.

I have played another MMO where they had a randomly generated dungeon with keys and doors etc (and its not XI or WoW) and it worked out pretty well. It was really cool - you entered with no items or gear and you had to find stuff within the dungeons (and it was fairly easy) but you could only carry a limited amount into the next stage. It got progressively harder, with bosses on set floors.
I guess they are sticking with the narrow hallway model of doing things though...

The thing is, when dungeons and raids are being released, they are always balanced based on gear that is currently available. When we reached the first Level 60 dungeons with iLevel 142/145 gear, they were considerably more challenging than they are right now with our iLevel 190+ gear. Back when 2.0 was released, Amdapor Keep and Wanderer’s Palace were a “Challenge”, while people were having trouble clearing Garuda Hard Mode. When we were still doing that we running around in our AF gear.

The “Expert”-dungeons were basically the hardest dungeons (excluding Trials and Raids) we could do in the current patch. Compared to the Extreme Primal Trials and the Coil/Alexander Raids, these dungeons were still a lot easier to complete. However, these dungeons were still meant to be cleared by the majority of the player base.

The “(Hard)” dungeons were purely harders versions of their original counterparts. And in all honesty they didn’t lie about that. Copperbell Hard was considerably more difficult to clear then Copperbell Normal was back while the Normal dungeons were released.

But, while we are gearing up, every single one of these Dungeons and Trials will get easier to beat. So, since we get better gear with each patch, the older content will get easier. In order to make them artificially more difficult, they’ve introduced that Item Level Sync for these dungeons, so that we outgear these dungeons too much. But, with the vertical progression we have in this game, there’s no solution to this problem. As long as we are getting gear with better stats on them, this particular problem with remain an issue.

One other thing they can do to make content last longer, is to give it a scaling difficulty based on level and/or ilevel. Instead of placing an (Item) level sync on the players, they could instead raise the difficulty of the duty by making the enemies in there stronger.

I disagree... for example, the ilvl requirement for expert roulette is i160, but they feel about the same difficulty as pre-lvl50 dungeons in i160 gear. They are still called expert.
In the JP client, the hard mode dungeons don't have the word "hard" in it, just another section of the dungeon. Kind of like how the second coil was called the binding coil of bahamut: invasion chapter instead of "second coil" or "coil (hard)". They have this naming scheme for all the dungeons in the game.

What if SE would add a feature we currently have for another type of content. The scaling difficulty of the Leve Quests. What if they added that kind of feature to a Dungeon? In the Duty/Party Settings they can add a slider where you add levels to the monsters in the dungeon. That might be interesting, wouldn’t you agree?

Theres ilvl sync for past dungeons, but I don't think anyone would want to do them because theres no reward... they could add a one time reward but it won't last that long unless its really hard. I look forward to something like that.
If they add a decent repeatable reward then it would becomes the new roulette... That might not be bad, introduce a new roulette that is twice as hard and give twice as much tomes. Oh wait we would just stop going after 2-3 days...

They really got themselves trapped when they put in vertical progression and weekly caps I think.
-They can't give out more tomes because people would stop playing after capping
-They can't give out better gear because it affects endgame and people in endgame would clear and stop playing
->They can't make content harder because it needs to give more rewards but they can't give more rewards because theres only tomes and ilvl gear to give due to vertical progression, and they can't give more of that. One possibility would be to lock pretty glamours behind hard content, but think of how people would react to that...

Even though they said that they’ve made the open word monsters more aggressive and stronger, it still doesn’t really feel like a dangerous world out there.

Pretty much. I'm really disappointed

I can remember a time, where we had to gather together a group of 6 people in order to successfully fight your way through an open world dungeon like Garlaige Citadel, Castle Oztroya, Castle Zvahl, etc in order to get that special weapon, spell or an item for your AF.

Those were fun times. I would love to see more of those. I really… REALLY want to raid Beastmen and Garlean fortresses with my friends for things like weapons, AF and special items.

The upcoming 3.1 patch will introduce something that reminds me of Sky. Setting out with your Airship, discovering new lands and fighting very strong enemies. I can’t wait to get my hands on that! (^_^ )

So, what i would like to see in this game to make it more exciting to play would be:

• Add random encounters/events in dungeons
• Add various content like for instance: “Nyzul Isle Investigation”, “Hamlet Defence / Besieged”, “Assault Dungeons”
• Make the world a more dangerous place with area’s where you really need to have a decent party to get through it (for instance, open world dungeons like Garlaige Citadel, Castle Oztroya and Castle Zvahl where you need to get items and/or weapons)

As you can see, i’ve given this a lot of thought and translated them into words. Let me know what you guys think.

Unfortunately, those side gears like AF will get replaced immediately by higher ilvl gear and so the content will be there without proper rewards ... so the content won't be created... (or they get created and players quickly abandon it)
I don't see an easy solution out of this...





Overall, I sound depressing right but this is how I feel after seeing that nothing really interesting has come and stuck around from 2.0 to 3.0, and that the future will be the same...
I really liked the coil storyline as a motivation for clearing it, but now that's gone too (alex story sucks)

[Keith_Dragoon]

I haven't graced this thread with my cuteness since my return so here you all are!

[NadienKirisame]

Interesting.... Anyone here remember Rukkirii? Apparently she is now a CM for NC Soft on Blade & Soul. Sort of interesting to see that.



The cat is amused =^.^=

[Valan]

Interesting.... Anyone here remember Rukkirii? Apparently she is now a CM for NC Soft on Blade & Soul. Sort of interesting to see that.

You mean the coeurl GM?

[mbncd]

You mean the coeurl GM?

Yeah. She was a cool lady.

[Lucke]

So I'm doing my EX Roulette every day like a good little tank, but I noticed something....disturbing. Every single day in every single roulette for the last week or so, I get DPS that run ahead and pull a bunch of mobs expecting me to get them off them. Like, is this a thing now, DPS pulling? These weren't some noobs or fresh 50 people, these are people in full law/Eso/Alex gear. Are DPS pullers now for some reason? They are like all confused as to why I don't want them running ahead face pulling everything.

Me: "Do you mind staying behind me so you don't face pull everything please?"
Them: "Why?"
Me: "What do you mean, 'why?'?"
I'm not being an asshole, I use words like, "please" and thank you".

At least when I call them out on it, they let me lead the way.

[Aldora]

So I'm doing my EX Roulette every day like a good little tank, but I noticed something....disturbing. Every single day in every single roulette for the last week or so, I get DPS that run ahead and pull a bunch of mobs expecting me to get them off them. Like, is this a thing now, DPS pulling? These weren't some noobs or fresh 50 people, these are people in full law/Eso/Alex gear. Are DPS pullers now for some reason? They are like all confused as to why I don't want them running ahead face pulling everything.

Me: "Do you mind staying behind me so you don't face pull everything please?"
Them: "Why?"
Me: "What do you mean, 'why?'?"
I'm not being an asshole, I use words like, "please" and thank you".

At least when I call them out on it, they let me lead the way.

To be completely honest Lucke, no. They are not confused, but more or less impatient.

They believe that you can tank faster and more, because they believe that the DPS is high enough for it or that the tank & healer can handle it. If a DPS or Healers believe that we can tank more, ask instead of just pulling more mobs. It's quite possible that the tank doesn't have enough MP or TP to gain enough hate for that pack. Or (s)he doesn't have the proper cooldowns ready to soak the damage. But, instead of slowing down and taking it easy (in order to make the dungeon run more smoothly), they tend to stick to it, making the run unnecessarily tough and awkward.

There is not much you can do about it, rather then asking them to slow down or grin and bear with it (which in the end does not help you enjoying your experience).

The funny thing is, while i was playing FFXI, it was fairly common for 1 DPS to go out and pull monsters while the rest of the party was out there killing the previous target you pulled. The reason they did that, was to keep the Experience Bonus Chains going and maxing out the Experience Points you got from a kill. This was done while you were in leveling parties, grinding for Experience Points in the open world and it worked like a charm. However, since the Experience points are so low in the open world, these Grinding parties don't exist anymore and we would have to resort to "Zerging" FATE's or running Duties for Experience Points. When you look at the way people are running dungeons, you do see a trend that people are trying to rush more, rather then keeping a steady pace, chaining each kill and leveling up "Efficiently". This is something i do miss from FFXI. Everyone seems to in a rush to complete their objectives in FFXIV.

If you as a member of the party are not comfortable with the way the rest of the group are pulling monsters or handling the dungeon mechanics, it's no shame to tell them that. But, since we're playing with so many different kinds of players, you'll get mixed responses ranging from kind to insulting, from funny to appalling.

This is also very much visible in the way people speak to each other on the forums. There are people who are trying to be nice, trying to be funny as well as trying to hold a decent discussion/conversation, but there are also more then enough people who bash, belittle and insult others. Unfortunately, this isn't something that with the Final Fantasy XIV community, but something that is increasing on all fronts within the human society. Common courtesy is starting to become a rare phenomenon.

In general, the dungeons i run go pretty smoothly, since i know what people expect me to do and i'm pretty confident that i can actually pull it off. But, i do get rather annoyed when you are doing your best to make a duty run smoothly while you see people not giving it all they've got, don't listen to strategies (and thus keep on ignoring mechanics) or simply don't want to learn new techniques/enhance their abilities.

That basically is currently my problem with the community right now, which makes be feel a bit burned out on the game. So, i keep logging in to make sure i got my Esoterics capped and gearing up my main classes, while playing other games like Bloodborne, The Wolf among Us, Diablo 3, GTA V, etc to get some variation in. (That, and i still have a ton of games i haven't played yet)

3.1 should give us more content to sink our teeth into and i can't wait to get my hands on that. But, till then. I'm taking it easy. (^_~ )

*snip snip*

I still want to respond to your post Sylkis, but i've been rather busy lately and haven't gotten the time and motivation to sit down and continue the discussion. So... To be continued. (^_~ )

[Reila_Circus]

So I'm doing my EX Roulette every day like a good little tank, but I noticed something....disturbing. Every single day in every single roulette for the last week or so, I get DPS that run ahead and pull a bunch of mobs expecting me to get them off them. Like, is this a thing now, DPS pulling? These weren't some noobs or fresh 50 people, these are people in full law/Eso/Alex gear. Are DPS pullers now for some reason? They are like all confused as to why I don't want them running ahead face pulling everything.

Me: "Do you mind staying behind me so you don't face pull everything please?"
Them: "Why?"
Me: "What do you mean, 'why?'?"
I'm not being an asshole, I use words like, "please" and thank you".

At least when I call them out on it, they let me lead the way.

Only in in early dunjins like Sastashrfgadfgw and Tam tara where people are new to MMOs. In Ex roulletes, I guess I'm the minority Tank that people actually listen to when I say something.

Me: "Could you please not cast regain while I'm pulling? It's making them aggro to you if I don't get them all."
Them: "k"
Me: "ty"
Them: "Np bb"

[Lucke]

This was immediately after we enter. I usually pull multiple groups depending on the Dungeon. For Neverreap, I can tank everything up to the wind currents that take you to the next island or everything up to the water spouts in the later area right before the final boss. The DPS immediately start pulling as soon as the barrier thing leaves when everyone is loaded in.

I wasn't "pulling too slow". I was pulling everything up to where you are forced to stop. And I know that in FFXI the ranged jobs like Ranger were the pullers, but this isn't XI. Here tanks run ahead and grab everything, since there are no such things as camps.

[Reila_Circus]

This was immediately after we enter. I usually pull multiple groups depending on the Dungeon. For Neverreap, I can tank everything up to the wind currents that take you to the next island or everything up to the water spouts in the later area right before the final boss. The DPS immediately start pulling as soon as the barrier thing leaves when everyone is loaded in.

I wasn't "pulling too slow". I was pulling everything up to where you are forced to stop. And I know that in FFXI the ranged jobs like Ranger were the pullers, but this isn't XI. Here tanks run ahead and grab everything, since there are no such things as camps.

I guess I'm just lucky or I don't notice. Cause I remember one time I did Neverreap some DPS pulled an extra group of adds and died, and then the healer and other DPS kicked him. I didn't even noticed.