Idea: Split Archer into Bard and Ranger

[Shaddai]

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Ok lets break it down using mnk as example. Job moves: Rockbreaker, Shoulder tackle, Fist of fire, One ilm punch, Dragon kick, Form shift, Meditation/FC, Elixer Field,Tornado Kick, Purification. So no long range period, no burst period, less dmg, no debuff, no shifting no aoe. Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them. Not to mention you get stat buff from just equipping the crystal. You can rotate all day you won't be of any use. Paladin: Sword O., Shield O., Cover,Spirits, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Divine viel, Clem, Royal. No SO so no dps. No ShO so good luck even trying to keep aggro from any dps past 3 seconds. No Hallowed. You can't do a rotation if you can't hold aggro. Middle ground solution. Have new branch jobs get their own crystals that alter previous base moves to fit the standard. You get new moves almost entirely that you can't access till you get the job so low lvl is safe and its still a branch.

[Aiselia]

Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them.

Incorrect, gameplay and performance aren't hand-in-hand. A 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 1 costume gear will have terrible performance because they don't have any stats aside from their base stats, but they'll play exactly the same as a level 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 200.

But then by your logic, you agree that class is more important than job when it comes to gameplay because your performance wouldn't be anything on a Monk without GL which is a class trait, not a job skill. And your performance on a BLM would be garbage without AF/UI, which is a class trait, not a job skill.

[Shaddai]

Incorrect, gameplay and performance aren't hand-in-hand. A 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 1 costume gear will have terrible performance because they don't have any stats aside from their base stats, but they'll play exactly the same as a level 60 MNK that's wearing ilvl 200.

But then by your logic, you agree that class is more important than job when it comes to gameplay because your performance wouldn't be anything on a Monk without GL which is a class trait, not a job skill. And your performance on a BLM would be garbage without AF/UI, which is a class trait, not a job skill.

No they wont play the same. you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats. You use GL to make a point, yet GL is a dmg ans speed buff yet you ignore the other job skills. Seriously stop posting. I said hand in hand not equal. You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

[Aiselia]

you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats.

Uh, no, having a lower ilvl doesn't make you have less skills and less utility. It just makes you not hit as hard.

Seriously stop posting.

No.

You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

No I didn't. I said it was by your logic.

By your logic, since you say that performance and gameplay go hand in hand, you agree that classes are more important to define a role than jobs because that's where the basic mechanics and skills come from. If you disagree, go run a dungeon and use ONLY your job skills. See how well you do. I can guarantee that a MNK that's using only job skills will do a lot worse than one only using class skills. And that's because job skills only enhance the class, not define it.

[RiceisNice]

I feel like you're completely missing the point.

Ok lets break it down using mnk as example. Job moves: Rockbreaker, Shoulder tackle, Fist of fire, One ilm punch, Dragon kick, Form shift, Meditation/FC, Elixer Field,Tornado Kick, Purification. So no long range period, no burst period, less dmg, no debuff, no shifting no aoe.

Monk's core gameplay comes from pugilist. That is, the numerous forms and positional hits. Rockbreaker requires a form, dragon kick requires a form, one ilm punch requires a form. All of the monk skills add onto what pugilist does.

Gameplay and performance are hand in hand can't seperate them. Not to mention you get stat buff from just equipping the crystal.

They are not two of the same. A BRD at level 60 does the exact same thing as a BRD at lvl 60 but with lower ilvl gear. The performance is lower with the same gameplay. You're still missing the context. I'm not saying the soul crystal does not boost your stats, but it does not change the core gameplay of the class, rather it adds onto it.

You can rotate all day you won't be of any use. Paladin: Sword O., Shield O., Cover,Spirits, Hallowed Ground, Sheltron, Divine viel, Clem, Royal. No SO so no dps. No ShO so good luck even trying to keep aggro from any dps past 3 seconds. No Hallowed. You can't do a rotation if you can't hold aggro. Middle ground solution.

Again, missing the context. A gladiator still does the exact same things as a paladin, because they have the exact same skills.

Have new branch jobs get their own crystals that alter previous base moves to fit the standard. You get new moves almost entirely that you can't access till you get the job so low lvl is safe and its still a branch.

Then why the hell are we shooting themselves in the leg for developmental standpoints if you're going to change the base class skills anyway? If the class skills are being changed, you might as well go all the way and give them their own class+job extension to give them their own identity, rather than reusing animations and skills with tweaked tool tips. It does the job absolutely no justice if their level 1-50 skills are carbon copies of their shared class with some adjustments.

No they wont play the same. you have less skills, less utility, as well as less stats. You use GL to make a point, yet GL is a dmg ans speed buff yet you ignore the other job skills. Seriously stop posting. I said hand in hand not equal. You even said it. Think about that for a moment.

Holy shit, no one said they were equal. How did you even get that out of his response? The point is that the two are not directly related to each other. A Pugilist still fights in the same manner as a monk does, because all monk does is take pugilist skills and adds onto it. You're still missing the point and at this point, I honestly feel like I'm talking to a wall or someone that straight up does not understand.

GL is a core mechanic if pugilist. If you tried to make a second dps job off pugilist, then that job would also have GL as a mechanic. On top of their form mechanic and positional mechanics.

[Shaddai]

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Dude I think you are the one missing the point. I say add a branch and then you argue about the core. Jobs are specializations. Branchs are addition specilizations. You guys argue about core saying core is fine without it. This is wrong jobs are what make gameplay as you say "add to it". Branching is adding something different to have different play styles from cores. The concept will still be the same. You know what forget it. It's like talking to a wall. Drop it.

[RiceisNice]

Dude I think you are the one missing the point. I say add a branch and then you argue about the core. Jobs are specializations. Branchs are addition specilizations. You guys argue about core saying core is fine without it. This is wrong jobs are what make gameplay as you say "add to it". Branching is adding something different to have different play styles from cores. The concept will still be the same. You know what forget it. It's like talking to a wall. Drop it.

Ok fine, drop it then. You keep putting words into my mouth anyway and it's honestly going nowhere now, and you're still missing the point that adding a branch does not deviate enough from the core to give its own distinct gameplay, only enough to add to it.

[Attelia]

Ok fine, drop it then. You keep putting words into my mouth anyway and it's honestly going nowhere now, and you're still missing the point that adding a branch does not deviate enough from the core to give its own distinct gameplay, only enough to add to it.

Precisely. These "branches" will not be different enough from their base class to justify their existence. Your little "Thief" or "Ranger" will either be too similar to the other job (which would render them pointless) or would be so dissimilar as to require a separate job (defeating the point of "branches").This isn't FFXI. SQENIX actually seems to give a damn about balance. There is not and should not ever be a separate job or class for every "flavor."

Classes are a cancer left over from 1.0 that serve to weaken the game's core. I believe the "extra jobs" introduced in HW is the right way to go about correcting this issue, and I hope SQENIX avoids adding more classes for the sake of "flavor" at the cost of balance.

[Shaddai]

Ok fine, drop it then. You keep putting words into my mouth anyway and it's honestly going nowhere now, and you're still missing the point that adding a branch does not deviate enough from the core to give its own distinct gameplay, only enough to add to it.

So then why does scholar/summoner work? Also about performance and gameplay not being hand in hand is delusional. If your ilvl is not high enough you miss. You miss no 1-2-3 combo. Changes will be made regardless. Having brand new class with no base is OK but it's most definitely not the better idea. Having skill tree's that branch into different directions is the way to go. If your not creative enough to see it that's fine. The soul crystal alter idea would be more interesting and less grinding. If your arguing a technical stand point, factually you and the other guy are incorrect. You want new new new. I Propose evolution of old to new. Semantics so I'm done with this.

[Aiselia]

So then why does scholar/summoner work?

Because they were designed with the split in mind and they dumped everything that you'd use for healing into the actual SCH skills except Physick.

If your ilvl is not high enough you miss.

Your ilvl is irrelevant to you missing. Your ACC is what matters. I just took my gear off and went and attacked a training dummy. Didn't miss a single hit. I put my gear back on. I attacked it again. Unsurprisingly, absolutely nothing changed in my rotation.

Having brand new class with no base is OK but it's most definitely not the better idea.

SE disagrees, thankfully. And that's probably because they have a bit more experience in making games than you do and know it'd be pointless to waste their time remaking everything that already exists when they could far easier make a completely new job that would actually retain its identity pre-30.

less grinding.

Yes, we all know that the only reason you want job splits is because you don't want to take the time to actually play the new jobs that you claim are so important for variety.

I'm done with this.

What is this, the third time you've been done?