DRG rant, is it really only just me? (Melee DPS balance).

[Ixsiehn]

BOTD has a much longer maximum timer than GL as well.

That's only because geirskogul eats into the duration (Monks dont have any form of mechanic that eats into their GL3 other than tornado kick which drops it completely).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=722665224

I'll leave that there for your viewing pleasure. Those are by no means bad players.

I stand corrected. MNKS were inferior on FCoB (Most likely after DRG buffs, i really lost the mood for FFXIV back then, didn't research as much around FCoB).

MNK = Max DMG unnecessary utility. DRG = High DPS and arguably necessary utility. NIN = Ok DPS with amazing utility.

People focus too much on their own numbers instead of looking at how much you actually bring to the group. Litany on openers is godlike along with disembowel puts DRG ahead of MNK. This game is a team effort (in raid setting at least) not an individual one. And while individual DPS is important, looking at how much you add to raid DPS is actually a factor in deciding your top DPS one would assume.

I may very well be misinformed, bias, or jumping the gun. At least conciously, I do not think I'm just focusing on personal DPS, I truly feel that MNKs slightly inferior utility doesn't warrant MNKs' superiority to DRGs everywhere else despite being easier to play and easier to master too. Mantra is often under-appreciated, but it is really good during progression, as it really eases the burden on healers during learning phases, and allows the raid to progress further and practice more (same can be said for battle litany and DPS checks, but I'm not saying battle litany is useless, but I feel that the community as a whole under appreciates mantra, and think battle litany is the 2nd coming of jesus).

I wouldn't say that Battle Litany is "Godlike" in openers, its about as good as trick attack, crits are only 50% damage boost, out of a 15% chance (so a 7.5% damage boost over 20 seconds), better than a singular TA which is a flat 10% over 10 seconds (but more beneficial to DoTs), but battle litany has a 3 minutes CD, which makes it nowhere near "godlike" as you have mentioned. It's about slightly better than TA during the opener, but inferior to it everywhere else.

[Butcherboy]

Thank you. To me the buff on mnk is not enough to compensate them a spot drg nin combo brings more raid dpS than say either drg mnk or mnk nin. In what is now? What does mnk brings to the table beside what 50 dps( lol) drg? Dark takes that spot now specially a lot of raid grp going war/dark combo, what's next mantra lol 20% nice healing bonus but will not make or break, it's a bonus but unnessary. What else is there nothing. Drg and ninja brings more to the table in terms of dmg. A raid grp will always have either brd or MCH. Raid grp will always have blm or Smn which those jobs benifits more with drg and ninja. So to me if yoshi P is planning on keeping mnk as a lone wolf when it comes to contributing then they need more buff to dpS since there raid contribution is non existant.

[RapBreon]

I agree, mantra I repeatedly mentioned mantra as a DEFENSIVE cooldown, i will repeat again that i mentioned what I did in the other thread just to "put it out there", and am not going to propagate mantra as a DPS utility.

Then it doesn't 'make-up' for it. It does something completely different and not comparable.

It may just be my small sample size observations on the numerous Bisex runs i did, where i parse spine only damage. A well played MNK will always out burst a well played DRG during that phase.

The spine is kind of a perfect storm for a MNK. He gets to start on it with 3x GL and gets to finish with a Tornado Kick + Forbidden Chakra. DRG has to start from HT. The spine favours MNK, for sure. But it's closer to the exception than the rule. At least from my experiences. And even then, I'm not overly convinced.

The opening burst starts on the 5th, but it only makes up for all the build up at around the 8th-9th, i mentioned 9th to be safe. That is the peak of DRG's burst. (DRG rotation is rigid, theres not much difference in how most DRGs play unless they're just playing it wrong)

My largest hit comes at the 5th GCD - Power surged jump + Wheeling/Fang. That's the peak for me. It peaks again at LS+FT+GK, but not as high.

You can mitigate most of the "downtime" with proper use of stance switching, chakra charging, and if the downtime is long enough to drop GL3, weave tornado kick before the downtime. These are tools DRGs didnt get, and its something we manage by using less geirskoguls. But during the actual downtime, we got nothing to pad the DPS loss.

I can't speak for A4. But I've dealt with every Alex Sav phase change by using Geirskogul until the buff drops off (after a Wheeling/Fang and Jumps are on CD) and just simply not using BoTD until the phase moves forward. If you time it right, you've lost nothing.

Oppressor jump ruins MNK, it doesn't do anything to us because BOTD should be off CD by then. Actually it's far better for us because it gives us time for B4B to come up. Which is far more valuable for us than a MNK. Time pads our DPS loss because we function on peaks and valleys. MNKs don't. Longer phase transitions favour us naturally. Presumably that is why they got a way to mitigate the disaster that is 30 second phase changes for them.

Alex 3 doesn't affect either too poorly. They keep GL3 you just press BOTD and still get your 3 Geirskoguls in.

We don't need the tools MNKs got because our buff functions very differently.

[Ephier]

That's only because geirskogul eats into the duration (Monks dont have any form of mechanic that eats into their GL3 other than tornado kick which drops it completely).


I stand corrected. MNKS were inferior on FCoB (Most likely after DRG buffs, i really lost the mood for FFXIV back then, didn't research as much around FCoB).


I may very well be misinformed, bias, or jumping the gun. At least conciously, I do not think I'm just focusing on personal DPS, I truly feel that MNKs slightly inferior utility doesn't warrant MNKs' superiority to DRGs everywhere else despite being easier to play and easier to master too. Mantra is often under-appreciated, but it is really good during progression, as it really eases the burden on healers during learning phases, and allows the raid to progress further and practice more (same can be said for battle litany and DPS checks, but I'm not saying battle litany is useless, but I feel that the community as a whole under appreciates mantra, and think battle litany is the 2nd coming of jesus).

I wouldn't say that Battle Litany is "Godlike" in openers, its about as good as trick attack, crits are only 50% damage boost, out of a 15% chance (so a 7.5% damage boost over 20 seconds), better than a singular TA which is a flat 10% over 10 seconds (but more beneficial to DoTs), but battle litany has a 3 minutes CD, which makes it nowhere near "godlike" as you have mentioned. It's about slightly better than TA during the opener, but inferior to it everywhere else.

Crits DMG scales with your crit rate. For every 1% crit rate you get your crit dmg goes up by 1% as well with the base starting at 50%. This was introduced in HW.

My comment on Litany mentioned "openers' mainly because there are so many buffs and modifiers the crits are going through that the damage comes out ridiculously high. The cooldown while high, is necessary. That skill is very strong.

Mantra as I said before is nice, but it is not necessary. While I do agree that the community does not see it for the boon that it is, the things that can be done with mantra can be made up with else where by just rotating healer cooldown usage, or tanks changing their cooldown timings. Virus, Disable and Rend also help further lower mantra's utility.

It is not really that MNKs utility is slightly inferior, its the problem that it can be rendered completely useless by other means, which cannot be said for DRG and NIN.

[DestinovaTrueblade]

DRG is so bad it made it into world first and second A4S clear along with NIN, while MNK stays on the bench...

[Ixsiehn]

Then it doesn't 'make-up' for it. It does something completely different and not comparable.

I don't believe I mentioned that it made up for anything at all. Mantra's strength is during progression where it softens the burden on healers to allow the raid to stay alive and keep practicing.

The spine is kind of a perfect storm for a MNK. He gets to start on it with 3x GL and gets to finish with a Tornado Kick + Forbidden Chakra. DRG has to start from HT. The spine favours MNK, for sure. But it's closer to the exception than the rule. At least from my experiences. And even then, I'm not overly convinced.

Thing is, MNKs start with PB, the reason why MNKs stop being above our DPS during the peak of our opening burst is because they don't tornado kick (because it drops GL3). I tested doing a spine where monk went in without GL3 and they still out-parse DRGs on the burst thanks to PB getting GL3 in 3 short GCDs and then spamming their hardest hitting attack until PB runs out before returning to their rotation and preparing to tornado kick and jump off.

My largest hit comes at the 5th GCD - Power surged jump + Wheeling/Fang. That's the peak for me. It peaks again at LS+FT+GK, but not as high.

I look at it as CT+Jump+4th vs LS + FT + GK + 4th. The 2nd being superior especially if the jump did not crit.

I can't speak for A4. But I've dealt with every Alex Sav phase change by using Geirskogul until the buff drops off (after a Wheeling/Fang and Jumps are on CD) and just simply not using BoTD until the phase moves forward. If you time it right, you've lost nothing.

In A1S I don't do the 3rd geirskogul to keep BotD up to land a 3rd and maybe 4th before the boss jumps. It's a 1-2 geirkogul loss if you just BotD a 2nd time during the phase and pop 2 geirskoguls (totaling to 5), but doing so would mean not having BotD up when the boss lands.

Oppressor jump ruins MNK, it doesn't do anything to us because BOTD should be off CD by then. Actually it's far better for us because it gives us time for B4B to come up. Which is far more valuable for us than a MNK. Time pads our DPS loss because we function on peaks and valleys giving. MNKs don't. Longer phase transitions favour us naturally. Presumably that is why they got a way to mitigate the disaster that is 30 second phase changes for them.

I will concede this point, MNK utility to pad downtime somewhat equals our stronger BotD.

Alex 3 doesn't affect either too poorly. They keep GL3 you just press BOTD and still get your 3 Geirskoguls in.

The split hands phase (if your hand wasn't the higher hp one) and the adds phase is bad for DRGs though. MNKs flowchart their rotation irregardless of target switching, needing to switch target (due to hand of pain or add dying) just as you hit disembowel is a dilemma for DRGs.

DRG is so bad it made it into world first and second A4S clear along with NIN, while MNK stays on the bench...

By this logic, SMNs are bad and needs a buff right? Please, don't pull this, it doesn't contribute to any discussion at all.

Crits DMG scales with your crit rate. For every 1% crit rate you get your crit dmg goes up by 1% as well with the base starting at 50%. This was introduced in HW.

Right, I completely forgot about this, I will concede that litany is indeed the superior buff on openings by a decent margin.

Mantra as I said before is nice, but it is not necessary. While I do agree that the community does not see it for the boon that it is, the things that can be done with mantra can be made up with else where by just rotating healer cooldown usage, or tanks changing their cooldown timings. Virus, Disable and Rend also help further lower mantra's utility.

I see your point, fair enough.

It is not really that MNKs utility is slightly inferior, its the problem that it can be rendered completely useless by other means, which cannot be said for DRG and NIN.

I concede, I do not think mantra will be rendered "completely useless" but, I can see that it can be made far less effective and is a lot harder to take advantage of it's benefits.

[RapBreon]

I don't believe I mentioned that it made up for anything at all. Mantra's strength is during progression where it softens the burden on healers to allow the raid to stay alive and keep practicing.

but mantra pretty much only makes up for Battle litany, and dragon kick's defensive utility was taken up by DRKs.

Thing is, MNKs start with PB, the reason why MNKs stop being above our DPS during the peak of our opening burst is because they don't tornado kick (because it drops GL3). I tested doing a spine where monk went in without GL3 and they still out-parse DRGs on the burst thanks to PB getting GL3 in 3 short GCDs and then spamming their hardest hitting attack until PB runs out before returning to their rotation and preparing to tornado kick and jump off.

Why would a monk save PB for spine? The transition is short enough that they can keep GL3 up if they are in Coeurl. Well, it should be, unless peeps are goofing.

Still a bit incredulous of this one. Because if a DRG also saved everything they should be able to get most of their burst in. But like I said, one situation a rule does not make.

I look at it as CT+Jump+4th vs LS + FT + GK + 4th. The 2nd being superior especially if the jump did not crit.

930 vs. 850 potency. 930 is guaranteed to coincide with TA and Hyper-charged turret + IR + BL + pot (though this one depends on opener + ping). 850 has a guaranteed crit. Even without a jump crit I still peak higher then due to group buffs. If jump crits, then GG. On average that section of my opener peaks harder. Regardless, splitting hairs.

The split hands phase (if your hand wasn't the higher hp one) and the adds phase is bad for DRGs though. MNKs flowchart their rotation irregardless of target switching, needing to switch target (due to hand of pain or add dying) just as you hit disembowel is a dilemma for DRGs.

Yes swapping sucks, that being said Alex Sav is about how well you learn the pattern. Just impulse drive twice (or HT twice) instead of moving straight into a disembowel. That's what I do if I need to delay a single GCD. Dilemma avoided.

[Ixsiehn]

mantra making up for X bit

You meant THAT. I misread your statement thinking you said that I believe mantra made up for being a utility by allowing healers to DPS. Battle Litany is indeed superior to mantra, but mantra still stands on its own as a good defensive CD.

Why would a monk save PB for spine? The transition is short enough that they can keep GL3 up if they are in Coeurl. Well, it should be, unless peeps are goofing.

Still a bit incredulous of this one. Because if a DRG also saved everything they should be able to get most of their burst in. But like I said, one situation a rule does not make.

You did not understand what I meant when I said that. It was more of a test to see that MNKs can indeed pull better on-demand burst even if GL3 wasn't carried over. And no, MNKs full CD burst into spine does more than DRG, try it yourself. This point I will not concede because I know it to be true.

930 vs. 850 potency. 930 is guaranteed to coincide with TA and Hyper-charged turret + IR + BL + pot (though this one depends on opener + ping). 850 has a guaranteed crit. Even without a jump crit I still peak higher then due to group buffs. If jump crits, then GG. Regardless, splitting hairs.

That is not how you calculate average DPS (or in this case PPS) you're completely disregarding LS.

Assuming crit chance of 15% (and at base crit damage, crit damage increases with critical rate now but I'm too lazy to bring it into this current simple math)

PPS of CT + Jump + 4th
250 + 390 + 290 = 930
with crit:
930 * (1+(0.15*0.5)) = 999.75

PPS of LS + FT + GK + 4th:
360 + 200 + 290 = 850
With Crit:
360 * (1+(1*0.5)) + ((200 + 290) * (1+(0.15*0.5))) = 1066.75

Gives you a better Idea on where the burst usually comes from. Only if jump crits would be where the 5th GCD would be superior. Hypercharged turret should be up for both peaks and TA really depends on when the ninja puts up TA. And I don't think discussion for optimal DPS or identifying optimal DPS is splitting hairs, it's welcome discussion for improvement (min-maxing).

Yes swapping sucks, that being said Alex Sav is about how well you learn the pattern. Just impulse drive twice (or HT twice) instead of moving straight into a disembowel. That's what I do if I need to delay a single GCD. Dilemma avoided.

I do try to do that if I can, but this is a DPS loss that monks don't have to contend with, not so much of an issue if it only happens once, but it happens repeatedly throughout phase 3.

[Carstien]

I was with you till you said mnk was still higher dps than drg after the arr fixes. It's simply not true, equally skilled drg has outparsed monks in single target since 2.4 dropped. Utility is now firmly in dragoons camp also with damage increases being far more valuable than dragon kick. Every group has a Brd or mch to take advantage of disembowel and only the worst groups double stack monks. The top groups usually have a DRK so they don't even need the int down from monk.

Right now drg is in a favourable position with even nin being taken over monk despite the damage buff.

[Ixsiehn]

I was with you till you said mnk was still higher dps than drg after the arr fixes. It's simply not true, equally skilled drg has outparsed monks in single target since 2.4 dropped. Utility is now firmly in dragoons camp also with damage increases being far more valuable than dragon kick. Every group has a Brd or mch to take advantage of disembowel and only the worst groups double stack monks. The top groups usually have a DRK so they don't even need the int down from monk.

Right now drg is in a favourable position with even nin being taken over monk despite the damage buff.

Yea I should edit my OP over that bit, I was misinformed and someone else already corrected me in the thread, ultimately I don't believe what I originally did as firmly as before.