What Roles would you like for Samurai and Red Mage?

[silentwindfr]

snips

i love people that want to believe in the dream anyway....

when yoshida talk about the role of a jobs, is rarely for change later.... more important, they are not fast at give information of this type. at the first SAM was developped as tank, but with heavensward, they have feel it was better to give the dark knight this role, more to bring dark knight over the samurai. 2 reason at that:
- 1) the lore was easier to explain with this
- 2) they did feel that 2 japanese theme jobs that close was a bad idea (kinda funny, since a large part of the community is not japanese and they only have 2 jobs that are heavily tie to the japanese theme)

then like said, yoshida did explain that for now samurai will not come and if he do come he feel the jobs is better as dps (what is normal, since a samurai is not know for endure damage but more for kill the enemy)

2 weapon is often link to damage dealer, we are not talking about irl here, but game, find me a tank that dual wield sword? they are quite rare exept game that try to break the stereotype. you can say it's more for parry and such, but the advantage to have 2 weapon, is to allows to attack more not defend more. (i doubt samurai will end with 2 sword since is more a ronin that do this.)

Samurai in all FF, exept for the 11 where the dev team did try to do something dumb.... is a dps, they do have some move based on fast counter, but since it's tie to solo game, it's hard to use it as reference.
indeed the jobs will emphazie on parry, since he don't have a shield... other point, no magic into this it's often called technic not magic, samurai is always shown in every final fantasy game as a warrior with a katana.... no magic into this.

finally, about the repartition of the jobs, you do have 3 tank, 3 healer for 3 melee jobs, 4 ranged jobs (magic and caster) however, in dungeon, you have 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dps. what the point to add another tank? especially since each tank fill a type of tanking.

- paladin = the defensive one, they are mainly the one that can absorb the most damage dealed to them
- warrior = the offensive one, the one that can deal the most damage of the three type of tank all of him attack are the physical type.
- dark knight = the magic one, the one that will steal hp, mp, debuff the enemy and such, more important a lot of him capacity are based on the mana and the gestion of this.

what will be a samurai? please enlight me master.

you simply want to have a samurai tank, ok, but don't try to say you have valid point for make mandatory.

if we take irl standpoint, samurai is a killer, nothing more nothing less, all him technique, all him training is for only one goal, kill the enemy that threaten them life or the life of them master. them life don't belong to them, actually they are often don't fearing death and are close of a controlled berserker. they are not knight, they are not paladin or any some sort of templar.... they are warrior! make it a jobs tank is like trying to make an european idea fit into a concept of warrior that belong to japan.

ps: one more time, add a new type of tank, will not make the game have more tank... people will probably not play samurai tank as main even if they level up it... check how many people have stay on the dark knight after leveling it (i'm talking of the dps player not the tank one)

pss: actually they have reach a balance with the three tank. add another one now is risky move since they need to make it different than the other. in wow, they had 4 tank nothing more nothing less, 1 physical (warrior), 1 buffing/magic (paladin), 1 debuffing/magic (death knight), 1 polymorph (druide and some can argue that it quite close of the warrior in the use)
add another tank, yes, if it can bring something different not only a flavor based on the lore around it, but about him mechanic.

[Sully]

What if Samurai (if they add it) turns out to be a Physical Magic job?

[Noxifer]

Why? Why must we have more "mail wearing" classes? No other class contests loot for Monk or Ninja either. All 3 melee dps have their own type of gear, why should Dragoons have to share theirs then? Why not monks or ninjas? If they put samurai in their armor, they should be a tank. And if they don't put them in their armor, they should be a dps and share gear with monk or nin, not drg.

If the SAM is made a dps with the image of the more heavy-armour type of samurai in mind, then I see them sharing gearset with Dragoon. If they're made with the light-armour iaido type of samurai in mind, however, they seem more likely to share gearsets with Monk.

And I don't agree with the "why should melee dps have to share gearsets?" argument. Bard also had their own gearset until Machinist came along. Casters share gearsets. Healers share gearsets (and usually share design with casters, the two being palette swaps with each other). Tanks share gearsets. Why should melee DPS have their own unique gearsets?
At the moment, it's because there are no other jobs that fit the criteria. Monk and Ninja could share gearsets (and did, for gearsets prior to Ninja introduction), but they don't because Ninja uses Dex and Monk uses Str. Monk and Dragoon could share gearsets since they both use Str, but they don't because Dragoon gear has more physical defense. So the only reason they don't share gearsets is because there's no other class/job that fits that "equipment niche". As new jobs are added that do, more and more of them will find themselves sharing gearsets with at least one other class.

(And yes, I totally over-used my quota of the word "gearset" in this post.)

[Calypsx]

actually they have reach a balance with the three tank. add another one now is risky move since they need to make it different than the other. in wow, they had 4 tank nothing more nothing less, 1 physical (warrior), 1 buffing/magic (paladin), 1 debuffing/magic (death knight), 1 polymorph (druide and some can argue that it quite close of the warrior in the use)

Lets not add any job then? Because like you said we have reached a balance with all of the dps jobs as well and adding another one is a risky move since they need to make it different than the other.

Also you are forgetting they added a monk tank which plays nothing like the others and there's a new tank coming out in the next expansion. So yeah, WoW is still coming out with tanks so you can't say "nothing more nothing less" when to this very day they are continuing to be made.

[ChazNatlo]

I've passed the point where I don't care whether Samurai is a Tank or a DPS, but I'd like to point out that when people say "Share armour with Dragoon" they're typically talking about lower levels, where there are four basic armour types. Tank Armour, DPS Armour, Caster/Healer Armour, and Dragoon/Lancer Armour. Not the Top level Combat gear where the Tanks all share, the Casters both share, the healers all share, the Ranged DPS both share, and the Melee DPS all get their own.

Course, we could have Samurai be a tank, and bring in Sword Mage to share armour with the Dragoon at those levels. Though we're getting to the point where I am uncertain what sort of sword we could give them, and with everyone wanting Red Mage to be casting Enspells on themselves, they're basically fusing the two Jobs anyways.

[Shippuu]

then like said, yoshida did explain that for now samurai will not come and if he do come he feel the jobs is better as dps (what is normal, since a samurai is not know for endure damage but more for kill the enemy)

I love seeing this weak argument. Samurai weren't known for enduring damage? Historically? They certainly were or they wouldn't have worn the armor they did. Within FF games? They DEFINITELY do, sporting some of the higher defensive and vitality stats. In some games, the Knight(Paladin) did more damage than them. Any argument like this gets thrown out the window because these exact things were said about Dark Knight and look where we are now.

2 weapon is often link to damage dealer, we are not talking about irl here, but game, find me a tank that dual wield sword? they are quite rare exept game that try to break the stereotype. you can say it's more for parry and such, but the advantage to have 2 weapon, is to allows to attack more not defend more. (i doubt samurai will end with 2 sword since is more a ronin that do this.)

TERA online had a dual sword wielding tank. It's possible. Any comment about dual wielding to do more damage is also pointless. FFXIV doesn't have a true dual wielding system, it's just 1 weapon that has the appearance of 2. It has absolutely nothing to do with "More weapons equal moar damage!" It's a pathetic argument and doesn't matter, and should be dismissed as such.

Samurai in all FF, exept for the 11 where the dev team did try to do something dumb.... is a dps, they do have some move based on fast counter, but since it's tie to solo game, it's hard to use it as reference.
indeed the jobs will emphazie on parry, since he don't have a shield... other point, no magic into this it's often called technic not magic, samurai is always shown in every final fantasy game as a warrior with a katana.... no magic into this.

Pointless argument. These arguments were made for Dark Knight being only a dps, it's a tank now, deal with it. Samurai in most past FF games could equip heavy armor and even shields. These are things that lend merit towards them being tanks. Tactics Samurai summoned spirits from their sword (Magic). You need to do your homework and stop spouting nonsense.

finally, about the repartition of the jobs, you do have 3 tank, 3 healer for 3 melee jobs, 4 ranged jobs (magic and caster) however, in dungeon, you have 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dps. what the point to add another tank? especially since each tank fill a type of tanking.

- paladin = the defensive one, they are mainly the one that can absorb the most damage dealed to them
- warrior = the offensive one, the one that can deal the most damage of the three type of tank all of him attack are the physical type.
- dark knight = the magic one, the one that will steal hp, mp, debuff the enemy and such, more important a lot of him capacity are based on the mana and the gestion of this.

what will be a samurai? please enlight me master.

What's the point to add another DPS then? They all just do damage. This argument can be made for DPS just as much as it can be made for Tanks. It's pointless, what does a DPS samurai bring that a MNK or DRG or NIN doesn't? Nothing. Tanks at least in 8man content do have at least 2 roles, Main Tank, and Off Tank, and currently Warrior is uncontested for that slot, making it damn near a required member of the team. Samurai tank could easily contest this slot and if you don't think so, then you're deliberately narrowing your view.

you simply want to have a samurai tank, ok, but don't try to say you have valid point for make mandatory.

You simply want a samurai dps, ok, but you have yet to make a valid point against samurai tanks.

if we take irl standpoint, samurai is a killer, nothing more nothing less, all him technique, all him training is for only one goal, kill the enemy that threaten them life or the life of them master. them life don't belong to them, actually they are often don't fearing death and are close of a controlled berserker. they are not knight, they are not paladin or any some sort of templar.... they are warrior! make it a jobs tank is like trying to make an european idea fit into a concept of warrior that belong to japan.

Oh this sounds familiar, I remember this. You just copied and past this from before with this argument. IRL samurai really don't matter too much, this is a FF game. A samurai wasn't any more of a killer irl than a knight, or a viking barbarian (warrior). Ironically you relate samurai to berserkers, yet our Berserker (Warrior) is a tank. So yeah, shooting yourself in the foot here.

ps: one more time, add a new type of tank, will not make the game have more tank... people will probably not play samurai tank as main even if they level up it... check how many people have stay on the dark knight after leveling it (i'm talking of the dps player not the tank one)

Every dps player I know who has tried DRK and leveled it, has now mained it and said things like "I didn't think I'd like tanking, but this job is really fun!". And while that's anecdotal evidence it still shows that not all players who tried DRK who haven't tanked before switched back.

pss: actually they have reach a balance with the three tank. add another one now is risky move since they need to make it different than the other. in wow, they had 4 tank nothing more nothing less, 1 physical (warrior), 1 buffing/magic (paladin), 1 debuffing/magic (death knight), 1 polymorph (druide and some can argue that it quite close of the warrior in the use)
add another tank, yes, if it can bring something different not only a flavor based on the lore around it, but about him mechanic.

Every single new job WoW has added has been able to tank, including the new one for the next expansion. So in essence, they've released a new tank with every expansion that added a new job. Your argument is pointless anyways because WoW is not FFXIV.

And I'm done responding to you because I remember you from past threads and all you're interested in is weak arguments for DPS samurai and a quite inaccurate view of who and what samurai actually were.

[Shippuu]

And I don't agree with the "why should melee dps have to share gearsets?" argument. Bard also had their own gearset until Machinist came along. Casters share gearsets. Healers share gearsets (and usually share design with casters, the two being palette swaps with each other). Tanks share gearsets. Why should melee DPS have their own unique gearsets?

There's nothing wrong with DPS sharing gearsets. I only commented on why specifically must DRG share their gearset as the person mentioned "We need more mail wearing dps". And I simply asked...why? Why specifically DRG? Why not MNK? or Nin? If Samurai get added as a dps, they will most certainly be sharing a dps gearset with some existing job.

Gearset sharing does become a problem when you mix roles though. Such as having a dps wearing heavy fending armor where now they compete against tanks (Who already have to compete against each other) for gear.

I've passed the point where I don't care whether Samurai is a Tank or a DPS, but I'd like to point out that when people say "Share armour with Dragoon" they're typically talking about lower levels, where there are four basic armour types. Tank Armour, DPS Armour, Caster/Healer Armour, and Dragoon/Lancer Armour. Not the Top level Combat gear where the Tanks all share, the Casters both share, the healers all share, the Ranged DPS both share, and the Melee DPS all get their own.

The lower level armors don't really matter though. Half the time DRG is wearing the same "Disciple of War" armor everyone else is. The ones that are heavier armor for DRG are few and far between. And anything post 50 is all specific to each jobs, there is none of that stuff. This will be a future job, and likely start at a high level again, possible even starting at level 50 if the level cap gets raised in the next expansion. Meaning a job being able to wear that gear is pointless cause it could start at a level beyond where that gear exists.

[ChazNatlo]

This will be a future job, and likely start at a high level again, possible even starting at level 50 if the level cap gets raised in the next expansion. Meaning a job being able to wear that gear is pointless cause it could start at a level beyond where that gear exists.

Not arguing, just clarifying.

To speak to the quote, I'm feeling a little lazy so no quote or anything, but I had heard that supposedly the next expansion will be able to be accessed at a lower level than Heavensward. We MIGHT get another 30 and up (set of) Job(s). Which is about the point where Dragoon starts to near exclusively wear Light plate and Scale mail, outside green dungeon drops.

That said, I wouldn't mind a Samurai Tank. Contrary to your "favourite" argument partner so far, I use Samurai as a Tank. Bladegrasp is a hell of a move. I just wouldn't be too bent out of shape if it were a DPS. I'd be a little weirded out if they made it a healer.

[Shippuu]

Not arguing, just clarifying.

To speak to the quote, I'm feeling a little lazy so no quote or anything, but I had heard that supposedly the next expansion will be able to be accessed at a lower level than Heavensward. We MIGHT get another 30 and up (set of) Job(s). Which is about the point where Dragoon starts to near exclusively wear Light plate and Scale mail, outside green dungeon drops.

That said, I wouldn't mind a Samurai Tank. Contrary to your "favourite" argument partner so far, I use Samurai as a Tank. Bladegrasp is a hell of a move. I just wouldn't be too bent out of shape if it were a DPS. I'd be a little weirded out if they made it a healer.

Hm, I've not seen any mention of the next expansion being accessed lower, only that the next expansion will not require one to have done all the Heavensward content. I'd play samurai regardless of it's role, I just feel SAM is a clear cut choice for another tank as it easily still fits into the mold of what FFXIV depicts a tank as. There are tons of other options for DPS roles, but very few choices for tank roles and most of them are obscure and not requested at all.

[ChazNatlo]

There are tons of other options for DPS roles, but very few choices for tank roles and most of them are obscure and not requested at all.

Or the attempts to basically make anything a Tank. Red mage? Tank. Blue Mage? Tank. Geomancer? Tank. Sword Mage? Tank. Dancer? Tank. Gunner? Tank.

I mean, I can see all of those being Tanks, though maybe there are better Roles for them. And as You say, better choices for Tank. Like Samurai.