What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

[Kosmos992k]

You must be joking. Wand and shield is more a remnant of 1.0 than it is a WHM/BLM (THM also gets wands) specific identity/mechanic. Even if you were to get this, it wouldn't change how WHM plays, which is what you seem to have a problem with, so you'd likely still be here complaining that either: A) Getting a wand and shield is more difficult than getting a staff or B) Having wand/shield isn't enough, and doesn't change WHM's play style enough.

I'd complain about neither of those things. As a Paladin, I already know about getting both parts of my weapon set.

I like the additional option and flavor that brings to the class/job. It is a distinction and part of the identity IMHO. This is the thing that you and others don't seem to get because you are totally focused on performance and comparative analysis of performance, especially in end-game situations.

@Risvertasashi

Regarding WHM use of hammers....I can see where they would have taken that from...Clerics in AD&D traditionally used blunt weapons such as the hammer as well, often a 1H weapon, I can't remember if they could use a shield or not, it's been literally more than 2 decades since i last played that... However since they already have the wands & shields in FFXIV and a lore established that has them able to use such weapons, I don't see them retconning a hammer into the hands of CNJ/WHM. On the other hand, higher ilvevl shields and wands can easily be implemented given that the existing system includes them.

...And me and numerous others think you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm sorry since when did how something looks and feels to a person become absolute fact? My opinion and feeling is that it's changed and I don't like it. I've given numerous expressions as to how I think it could be fixed. You can argue with that all you like, but you can't say I have no idea what I am talking about, nor can you claim any of the nonsense in the following paragraph.

This is like trying to debate with flat earthers or creationists: these are people who have already decided that they are 100% correct and no force on earth will convince them otherwise. Then, when people get angry and mock them, they draw the conclusion that, "Since they're mad at us, it must mean that out argument must hold merit!"

So, you'll be shifting your ground then since currently you are standing fast attempting to argue about something I am not.

Listing all of the flaws in their arguments doesn't convince them, showing them math proving them wrong doesn't convince them...

How precisely can you prove me wrong in how *I* feel about something, or what *my* opinion is about it or how to fix it? If you read back through this thread, you'll see at least one occasion in this discussion alone where something I stated was indeed wrong, it was pointed out and I accepted that correction without an issue. The thing about this is that identity is more qualitative than quantitative, you and many others are discussing and arguing from a quantitative point of view, I am not. I believe that the issue is a qualitative one in that it is dependent on the subjective personal opinion of each player. You can't prove me or anyone else wrong on a matter that is not factual but entirely subjective.

It's literally at the point where there's no reason to even bother trying to engage these people. Why bother when you're in a situation where the person wholeheartedly believes that never admitting that they're wrong somehow means they're right?

Quite correct, well done, you described your position exceedingly well.

[GideonHighmourn]

I'd complain about neither of those things. As a Paladin, I already know about getting both parts of my weapon set.

You fail to understand that the reason it was phased out was for this very reason. I for one, as someone who has played WHM since the beginning, am very happy they phased out one-handed/shield combos; it was superfluous, annoying, and added nothing to the class besides more hoops to jump through for upgrades compared to SCH (and now AST).

I like the additional option and flavor that brings to the class/job. It is a distinction and part of the identity IMHO. This is the thing that you and others don't seem to get because you are totally focused on performance and comparative analysis of performance, especially in end-game situations.

It would change absolutely nothing about how the class is played. Not one thing. Your chief complaint is that WHM isn't a special enough snowflake; how would being able to use a different visual for weapons change your complaint?

WHM is different from AST/SCH because it doesn't have gimmicks to fool around with while healing. If you want gimmicks, play a class with gimmicks. WHM is fine without them and is the better for it.

[Kosmos992k]

You fail to understand that the reason it was phased out was for this very reason. I for one, as someone who has played WHM since the beginning, am very happy they phased out one-handed/shield combos; it was superfluous, annoying, and added nothing to the class besides more hoops to jump through for upgrades compared to SCH (and now AST).

That's your opinion, mine is different, I like the look of the wand and shield combination and enjoy playing the job with a bit better survivability for close healing. If you prefer two handed weapons, that's great, but it doesn't make 1H weapon + shield somehow redundant for those that enjoy it.

It would change absolutely nothing about how the class is played. Not one thing. Your chief complaint is that WHM isn't a special enough snowflake; how would being able to use a different visual for weapons change your complaint?

Well, lets see, you have a shield and weapon so you can both block and parry attacks, which is an active mitigation of damage. Why the hell is it so wrong for a player to want a different look? Isn't that one of the major aspects of a game with multiple gear sets, glamour and relatively flexible character design? How would a different look change my complaint? Easy, it would make it different for me and how I feel and experience the play as WHM. Is that enough of a reason, or are you now going to tell me that my opinion or feeling is objectively wrong because you say so?

WHM is different from AST/SCH because it doesn't have gimmicks to fool around with while healing. If you want gimmicks, play a class with gimmicks. WHM is fine without them and is the better for it.

CNJ/WHM already has Wand and shield, it would take literally 1 working day to do minimal design work on two or three sets at decent Ilevels and would not affect you or anyone else in a negative way at all. Why are you so passionately arguing against this and calling it redundant?

[Risvertasashi]

WHM is different from AST/SCH because it doesn't have gimmicks to fool around with while healing. If you want gimmicks, play a class with gimmicks. WHM is fine without them and is the better for it.

I'll just chime in to say that I don't really feel SCH is a gimmicky healer. It was (IMO) a really well designed alternative to just straight healing. My "proof" will be that their new skills were able to integrate into existing systems (ie use aetherflow, modify how existing SCH abilities work, etc etc). Even with the relatively homogenization, SCH is very distinct from WHM.

Now let's look at AST. Reskinned WHM spells... bolted on card system that doesn't integrate with the rest of the class... Yep, that I'd call gimmicky. (I say this even though I do enjoy AST)

[RichardButte]

I'm sorry since when did how something looks and feels to a person become absolute fact?

What WHM has that AST doesn't:
-an AoE that heals everyone for 300, damages all enemies for 300 AND restores 10% of my mana
-a 30% boost to healing power for 15 sec on a minute CD (which boosts HoTs, unlike AST's Synastry)
-a bubble that doesn't require channeling
-E4E
-Virus
-a mana restoring ability that reduces aggro immediately instead of just reducing aggro generated while it's active
-not one but TWO instant-cast heals that restore a crapton of HP (one restores ALL HP, while the other is 700 potency)
-an instant HoT with 150 potency (as opposed to AST's 140) which lasts for 21 seconds as opposed to 18 seconds and costs less mana (618 vs. AST's 707)
-the far more important MND party buff instead of PIE

If you're not healing better than an AST with this toolkit, maybe it's time to sober up to the fact that it's not the TOOLKIT that is to blame, here...

Seriously, go level AST to 60, and when your static leader politely but forcefully asks to to go back to WHM, maybe THEN you'll get the message.

I'll just chime in to say that I don't really feel SCH is a gimmicky healer. It was (IMO) a really well designed alternative to just straight healing. My "proof" will be that their new skills were able to integrate into existing systems (ie use aetherflow, modify how existing SCH abilities work, etc etc). Even with the relatively homogenization, SCH is very distinct from WHM.

Now let's look at AST. Reskinned WHM spells... bolted on card system that doesn't integrate with the rest of the class... Yep, that I'd call gimmicky. (I say this even though I do enjoy AST)

...And the irony here would be that, even if they retooled AST from the ground up to make it completely different from WHM in EVERY single regard (which wouldn't really be possible), Whine Mages would still complain that their class feels too "vanilla" when it's the vanilla healing class...

[EinherjarLucian]

...And me and numerous others think you have no idea what you're talking about.

This is like trying to debate with flat earthers or creationists: these are people who have already decided that they are 100% correct and no force on earth will convince them otherwise. Then, when people get angry and mock them, they draw the conclusion that, "Since they're mad at us, it must mean that out argument must hold merit!"

Listing all of the flaws in their arguments doesn't convince them, showing them math proving them wrong doesn't convince them...

It's literally at the point where there's no reason to even bother trying to engage these people. Why bother when you're in a situation where the person wholeheartedly believes that never admitting that they're wrong somehow means they're right?

On a side note, just as AST and WHM and SCH can stand together on their own merits, there's absolutely no reason why Creationism and Evolutionism/Expansionism can't also stand together on their own merits. Why does any of it have to be mutually exclusive? Both detail the origin of the universe, but from different angles.

Likewise, AST and WHM and SCH do the same primary job: They heal the party. They just all do it from different angles.

[DawnSolaria]

I'll just chime in to say that I don't really feel SCH is a gimmicky healer. It was (IMO) a really well designed alternative to just straight healing. My "proof" will be that their new skills were able to integrate into existing systems (ie use aetherflow, modify how existing SCH abilities work, etc etc). Even with the relatively homogenization, SCH is very distinct from WHM.

Now let's look at AST. Reskinned WHM spells... bolted on card system that doesn't integrate with the rest of the class... Yep, that I'd call gimmicky. (I say this even though I do enjoy AST)

Unfortunately in the world of healing there exist 3 components: Raw heal, Shield, and HOTs. Anything related to healing that can possibly be given to Astrologian will be called reskin/identical or gimmicky, since Scholar has the shield department and WHM has hot/raw heal. Anything overly creative,say, time magic, where a large damage is instead coverted to DoT, would not work because it would be used to ignore mechanics.

Lots of talks about identical spell but no one provides plausible alternative solutions. A healer will have to be able to heal to be a healer.

[RichardButte]

On a side note, just as AST and WHM and SCH can stand together on their own merits, there's absolutely no reason why Creationism and Evolutionism/Expansionism can't also stand together on their own merits. Why does any of it have to be mutually exclusive? Both detail the origin of the universe, but from different angles.

My point wasn't to go into that discussion. My point was that there are people who have decided they are not wrong and that's basically all there is to it.

People who believe the earth is FLAT, for example, can be shown all of the pictures of earth from space, the pictures of other planets, the movement of the stars, etc. and they still won't believe it.

The WoW devs actually dealt with a similar issue, where they simply stopped engaging people in discussions about class balance.

See, if a guy comes to the forum with the idea in his head that rogues are weak and need buffs, and that he is absolutely right in his opinion and that nothing anyone ever says will convince him otherwise, there's no point in discussing it with him.

He has already decided that the only possible conclusion to the discussion he will allow is the devs admitting that they are wrong and that rogues need buffs. It doesn't matter how many facts are presented to him. It doesn't matter if you show him both the hypothetical and factual math, where he can clearly see that rogues are parsing above every other DPS class.

He will invent any number of excuses necessary, he will run the discussion around with random bullsh*t if he has to, he will do ANYTHING but admit that he's wrong.

I suspect we're running into the same kinds of people here, and most of these people clearly haven't even leveled more than one healer to compare and contrast the performance of the two.

WHM is still king. Nothing has changed that. AST's buffs are such that they will help the party some times and do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other times. These people don't seem to understand this concept, they can't seem to grasp how the entire toolkit of each class needs to be factored into the equation. They're only looking at the baseline heals and crying buff as a result.

Being the best healer in the game IS a unique role (and it's still by far the best healer to be). There's nothing left to do to these people except mock them a bit, then do what SE is already doing: ignore them.

[J-Dax]

On a side note, just as AST and WHM and SCH can stand together on their own merits, there's absolutely no reason why Creationism and Evolutionism/Expansionism can't also stand together on their own merits. Why does any of it have to be mutually exclusive? Both detail the origin of the universe, but from different angles.

Likewise, AST and WHM and SCH do the same primary job: They heal the party. They just all do it from different angles.

... Uh... What?

[Gist]

There's nothing left to do to these people except mock them

I thought you were toxic when you changed your main class from Astrologian to Scholar and then continued participating in this ongoing discussion. You're ckc22. This proves it without a doubt.