What makes WHM special? Nothing anymore.

[GideonHighmourn]

IMHO it leaves WHM feeling a bit bland and pigeon holed as the supposed "raw power" or pure healer. I think that one of the things that set WHM/CNJ apart from SCH/ACN in ARR was the ability to opt for extra defense with a physical shield at the expense of a bit of the raw healing power. Once the playerbase starts overgearing content, raw power is less important, I'd love to be able to pick up a wand and shield with a suitable ilvl as an option.

You must be joking. Wand and shield is more a remnant of 1.0 than it is a WHM/BLM (THM also gets wands) specific identity/mechanic. Even if you were to get this, it wouldn't change how WHM plays, which is what you seem to have a problem with, so you'd likely still be here complaining that either: A) Getting a wand and shield is more difficult than getting a staff or B) Having wand/shield isn't enough, and doesn't change WHM's play style enough.

Stoneskin was a necessary evil, in my mind, much in the same way that Lustrate was changed from a percentage-based heal to a potency-based heal; SE has tried to phase out any percentage based healing in an effort to prevent mechanic avoidance, and I have a feeling Stoneskin was part of that movement.

[Risvertasashi]

Stoneskin was a necessary evil, in my mind, much in the same way that Lustrate was changed from a percentage-based heal to a potency-based heal; SE has tried to phase out any percentage based healing in an effort to prevent mechanic avoidance, and I have a feeling Stoneskin was part of that movement.

Spot on, I think. Benediction is now the only % based heal that can ignore all debuffs (well, except max health reductions of course).

...As far as traditional WHM weapons go, that would... going back to FF1... be hammers I believe, not wands and shields (although they did have staves that healed instead of dealing damage with 'attack' actions too).

[Kosmos992k]

You must be joking. Wand and shield is more a remnant of 1.0 than it is a WHM/BLM (THM also gets wands) specific identity/mechanic. Even if you were to get this, it wouldn't change how WHM plays, which is what you seem to have a problem with, so you'd likely still be here complaining that either: A) Getting a wand and shield is more difficult than getting a staff or B) Having wand/shield isn't enough, and doesn't change WHM's play style enough.

I'd complain about neither of those things. As a Paladin, I already know about getting both parts of my weapon set.

I like the additional option and flavor that brings to the class/job. It is a distinction and part of the identity IMHO. This is the thing that you and others don't seem to get because you are totally focused on performance and comparative analysis of performance, especially in end-game situations.

@Risvertasashi

Regarding WHM use of hammers....I can see where they would have taken that from...Clerics in AD&D traditionally used blunt weapons such as the hammer as well, often a 1H weapon, I can't remember if they could use a shield or not, it's been literally more than 2 decades since i last played that... However since they already have the wands & shields in FFXIV and a lore established that has them able to use such weapons, I don't see them retconning a hammer into the hands of CNJ/WHM. On the other hand, higher ilvevl shields and wands can easily be implemented given that the existing system includes them.

...And me and numerous others think you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm sorry since when did how something looks and feels to a person become absolute fact? My opinion and feeling is that it's changed and I don't like it. I've given numerous expressions as to how I think it could be fixed. You can argue with that all you like, but you can't say I have no idea what I am talking about, nor can you claim any of the nonsense in the following paragraph.

This is like trying to debate with flat earthers or creationists: these are people who have already decided that they are 100% correct and no force on earth will convince them otherwise. Then, when people get angry and mock them, they draw the conclusion that, "Since they're mad at us, it must mean that out argument must hold merit!"

So, you'll be shifting your ground then since currently you are standing fast attempting to argue about something I am not.

Listing all of the flaws in their arguments doesn't convince them, showing them math proving them wrong doesn't convince them...

How precisely can you prove me wrong in how *I* feel about something, or what *my* opinion is about it or how to fix it? If you read back through this thread, you'll see at least one occasion in this discussion alone where something I stated was indeed wrong, it was pointed out and I accepted that correction without an issue. The thing about this is that identity is more qualitative than quantitative, you and many others are discussing and arguing from a quantitative point of view, I am not. I believe that the issue is a qualitative one in that it is dependent on the subjective personal opinion of each player. You can't prove me or anyone else wrong on a matter that is not factual but entirely subjective.

It's literally at the point where there's no reason to even bother trying to engage these people. Why bother when you're in a situation where the person wholeheartedly believes that never admitting that they're wrong somehow means they're right?

Quite correct, well done, you described your position exceedingly well.

[RichardButte]

I'm sorry since when did how something looks and feels to a person become absolute fact?

What WHM has that AST doesn't:
-an AoE that heals everyone for 300, damages all enemies for 300 AND restores 10% of my mana
-a 30% boost to healing power for 15 sec on a minute CD (which boosts HoTs, unlike AST's Synastry)
-a bubble that doesn't require channeling
-E4E
-Virus
-a mana restoring ability that reduces aggro immediately instead of just reducing aggro generated while it's active
-not one but TWO instant-cast heals that restore a crapton of HP (one restores ALL HP, while the other is 700 potency)
-an instant HoT with 150 potency (as opposed to AST's 140) which lasts for 21 seconds as opposed to 18 seconds and costs less mana (618 vs. AST's 707)
-the far more important MND party buff instead of PIE

If you're not healing better than an AST with this toolkit, maybe it's time to sober up to the fact that it's not the TOOLKIT that is to blame, here...

Seriously, go level AST to 60, and when your static leader politely but forcefully asks to to go back to WHM, maybe THEN you'll get the message.

I'll just chime in to say that I don't really feel SCH is a gimmicky healer. It was (IMO) a really well designed alternative to just straight healing. My "proof" will be that their new skills were able to integrate into existing systems (ie use aetherflow, modify how existing SCH abilities work, etc etc). Even with the relatively homogenization, SCH is very distinct from WHM.

Now let's look at AST. Reskinned WHM spells... bolted on card system that doesn't integrate with the rest of the class... Yep, that I'd call gimmicky. (I say this even though I do enjoy AST)

...And the irony here would be that, even if they retooled AST from the ground up to make it completely different from WHM in EVERY single regard (which wouldn't really be possible), Whine Mages would still complain that their class feels too "vanilla" when it's the vanilla healing class...

[winsock]

What WHM has that AST doesn't:
-an AoE that heals everyone for 300, damages all enemies for 300 AND restores 10% of my mana

DS is def a good WHM skill, most everything else the AST has access to in one shape or form

You really cant weigh assize as heavily as you do.
Because of stats you really only have the choice between dmg in cleric stance OR healing out of cleric stance because at any given time one of them is going to be pitiful.

But the major part you're missing here is that MP management is a system and not limited to one particular skill.
Assize as a part of an MP management system is restrictive. If you blindly use it on cd, the 300 potency may not be used as efficiently as it could have been which lowers your mp efficiency, but the longer you wait to use it the more you miss out on the its MP restore.


AST MP management is much more flexible. LA can be used in conjunction with Spear if you want. You can use or save ewer to help with MP, give ewer to the other healer, OR do something else entirely and try for a party DPS increase instead.

Seriously, go level AST to 60, and when your static leader politely but forcefully asks to to go back to WHM, maybe THEN you'll get the message.

How bout you level WHM to 60?

[J-Dax]

AST MP management is much more RNG. LA can be used in conjunction with Spear if you want. You can use or save ewar to help with MP, give ewar to the other healer, OR do something else entirely and try for a party DPS increase instead.

I fixed this for you.

[winsock]

I fixed this for you.

Right, cause WHM doesnt deal with RNG in MP management. /sarcasm

[J-Dax]

Right, cause WHM doesnt deal with RNG in MP management. /sarcasm

Then I suppose that makes them equal?

Not really when taken into consideration a WHM has a % chance of a specific action causing a specific effect. Where as cards are a % chance of drawing one of 6 effects.

[Mutemutt]

Right, cause WHM doesnt deal with RNG in MP management. /sarcasm

Well, I'd say there is a very big difference in opportunity cost here. Every ewer or spear you actually use on yourself to deal with your own mp issues comes at the cost of the expand/extend buffs from royal road or just possibly another buff (most preferably one to increase the parties dps) through the use of shuffle. Whereas the only drawback to freecure, and the other cost reducing traits, is perhaps extra enmity. That enmity, by the way, will be continuously cut in half by shroud of saints so over the course of a long encounter it is negligible.