Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

[Charybdis]

Yup. It affects damage, and I need that scale factor. Just... You need to be careful about isolating Crit, Skill/Spellspeed increase from Pet Trait, and non-crit values.

I'm being extremely careful to not raise any other attributes and JUST SS as well as stopping pet attacks when the Enhanced Trait pops to get a baseline for damage alone. Don't worry about that!

[Minorinz]

Sigh. I give up.

It's days like this I wish I had 60 SMN ;_;

yeah it should help see what you are missing, you seem like you need some insight.

Don't you realize that the same analysis determines the values of both? If you don't have anything on SS, you don't have anything on Crit. They're both relative to each other, so unless you know how _relatively good_ SS is, you have no idea how _relatively good_ Crit is. You can't understand the value of one without understanding the value of another.
You don't need a level 60 SMN to recognized a horrible argument for what it is.

You don't have to stack ss to realize how crit works just like how stacking crit with not that much main stat is not the smartest thing for example, and yes, it's a no brainer when a stat is already that strong and so obvious. Like I said, again, I parse a lot. I look at my parse data to improve. Guess what? It works perfectly fine. I check other people's parses and analyze those on every level to see how it played out differently, it interests me. I have yet to see someone who can break a decent parse with ss stacked vs crit/det on mutiple tries. I've noticed how pot/raging/dwt with different crit rate values and it can make a difference of 40-50 dps in total at 3:38 min parse. I'm not talking 5-10 dps difference, i'm talking about way more. Stats theory crafting is nice but it's not always practical. Let's see how this goes, if ss is truly that good. People do have choices after all, feel free to drift away with this if you see something good coming out of it. Man, these tests do take forever don't they?

[Judge_Xero]

If you want a little more data to possibly help you with the Speed interaction I ran a 30 minute parse with Ifrit just attacking a dummy and here's my results and my gear stats.

792 Crit (17% Crit Rate)
539 Spell Speed

588 Burning Strikes
598 Auto Attacks

Nice. Just going to look at it normalized to my times as it looks like yours is 30 minutes 20 seconds.

792 Crit (17% Crit Chance) +438 - (calculated 15.4% Crit Chance)
539 Spell Speed + 185
552 Auto Attacks
542.7 Burning Strikes

VS

751 Spell Speed + 397
479 Crit (7% Chance) + 125
552 Auto Attacks
541 Burning Strikes

----------------------------

That's interesting because I thought that Crit would effect the gains more overall VS just more SPD. Can we get a simulator just for Enhanced Pet? ;p

[Charybdis]

Update:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Quick update before bed, will be testing through the weekend. At +74 Spell Speed and seeing no changes in damage for pets. Can probably milk another +40-60 Spell Speed before I can't maintain the WD/INT/CRT/DET baseline, Dervy. Thoughts?

[Charybdis]

snip.

This is from Dervy, Judge. He hit his post limit:

Hit post count limit on the forums lmfao, so I can't post it. But, 792 CRT = 15.2% CRT, which means Pets scale CRT higher than Jobs, lmao?

1-(1-17*0.2)2 = 6.64% per 3s to proc

6.68%/3 = 2.228% per sec to proc

1/2.228 = 44.8806s per proc

1+0.28/44.8806 = *1.035650133 SS multiplier on average for ifrit @ 792 Crit**

Garuda is roughly half of that.

Adding the Enhanced Pet Trait on Skillspeed actually increased my SS a bit more. It's now on-par with Determination, almost.

[Dervy]

The missing piece of the puzzle is raw pet data.

Update:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Quick update before bed, will be testing through the weekend. At +74 Spell Speed and seeing no changes in damage for pets. Can probably milk another +40-60 Spell Speed before I can't maintain the WD/INT/CRT/DET baseline, Dervy. Thoughts?

Yeah. We need to be 100% certain.

yeah it should help see what you are missing, you seem like you need some insight.



You don't have to stack ss to realize how crit works just like how stacking crit with not that much main stat is not the smartest thing for example, and yes, it's a no brainer when a stat is already that strong and so obvious. Like I said, again, I parse a lot. I look at my parse data to improve. Guess what? It works perfectly fine. I check other people's parses and analyze those on every level to see how it played out differently, it interests me. I have yet to see someone who can break a decent parse with ss stacked vs crit/det on mutiple tries. I've noticed how pot/raging/dwt with different crit rate values and it can make a difference of 40-50 dps in total at 3:38 min parse. I'm not talking 5-10 dps difference, i'm talking about way more. Stats theory crafting is nice but it's not always practical. Let's see how this goes, if ss is truly that good. People do have choices after all, feel free to drift away with this if you see something good coming out of it. Man, these tests do take forever don't they?

I'm going to apologise for you, that mathematics isn't your strongest point, thus have to result to insult a player who's trying to help a community of a Job, he doesn't even have above level 1, whilst trying to put sense into arrogance.

Let me explain to you, why everything your saying is nonsensical and you should stop posting on these forums because you have no clue what you're talking about. Plus, you're annoying.

Firstly, you say, and I quote:

Stats theory crafting is nice but it's not always practical

If stats-theorycrafting isn't practical, then what on earth are you doing? Are you not on a training dummy comparing CRT/DET/SS and arguing that CRT is the strongest stat for a summoner? What you're doing is Theorycrafting. What you're doing on that Dummy is a form of theorycrafting. But according to Summoner.God over here, theorycrafting isn't practical. Thus, invalidating all of your arguments for and against stats. Don't be a hypocrite, please.

Secondly,

I've noticed how pot/raging/dwt with different crit rate values and it can make a difference of 40-50 dps in total at 3:38 min parse. I'm not talking 5-10 dps difference, i'm talking about way more

Like, I can't tell what you're arguing about here. You're encountering RNG. A difference in:

50 Critical hit Rating is 80/(858*5) = 0.01165501165% Critical Hit Chance and Damage
100 Critical Hit Rating is 100/(858*5) = 0.02331002331% Critical Hit Rating and Damage
200 Critical Hit Rating is 200/(858*5) = 0.04662004662% Critical Hit Rating and Damage

This isn't just some number I'm pulling out of thin air. This is proper mathematics. Over 500 data-points, verified by other players, then some magic which I'll not comment on.

So you stacking all of that crit, then saying "it makes a 50DPS increase" is you just encountering RNG. There's a reason why you as a summoner only has around 13% natural CRT. Please, just stop because I'm just going to keep throwing more and more numbers at you.

I'm trying to be as biased as I can here and admittedly there are things I don't know about a summoner, but it's hard when people want to be plain arrogant.

[Charybdis]

What sort of raw pet data do you need? Just a pet with no equipment? I was testing various builds at one point but dropped them when we got into the spell speed research.

Just want to be sure what to test after I'm done with spell speed.

[Dervy]

Exactly what you're doing

But I'm really confused because T0rin last night noticed a change in pet damage when he was nearly 700 SS. He also noticed a slight "desync" in AAs and burning Strikes, where AAs where coming off slightly sooner.

I don't get your pets

[Charybdis]

Exactly what you're doing

But I'm really confused because T0rin last night noticed a change in pet damage when he was nearly 700 SS. He also noticed a slight "desync" in AAs and burning Strikes, where AAs where coming off slightly sooner.

I don't get your pets

I don't get our pets, haha. T0rin will need to clarify. I won't be able to hit 700 Spell Speed without radically changing my baseline stats.

EDIT: Actually Dervy, I'm not seeing where T0rin said Spell Speed affected Pet Damage in any of his testing unless it wasn't last night or I'm blind. Based off our exchange this morning, it totally could be the latter.

[Dervy]

QQ

Yes, stop posting on this thread, because nothing you've said in the last 15 pages has been constructive or of any value. You're just typing for the sake of typing because I said something that you don't like, which was, there's a possibility that SS could be very good with the limited work I've done thus far. I never once stated "stack SS it's better". Go back to my earlier posts and re-read it. I said said there's a chance it could be SS > CRT > DET because of how well it was scaling.

Notice I've not posted anything about SS in the past few days? Why? Because my work is still incomplete.

Next, other people have been trying to tell you how SS affects your DPS, but obviously, the king of summoners who believes theorycrafting isn't always practical when he's on a training dummy every day and never once posts his "normalised parsed data to prove me wrong", can't comprehend other people have their opinions.

If you know everything, then please, educate me and start spitting out numbers to show the community how my efforts are futile.

But here's the thing. You still can't even acknowledge what I'm trying to accomplish here. My goal isn't to prove SS being better than Crit. My goal is to create a fully functioning Summoner Model so I can accurately calculate stat-weights, gauge estimated DPS values with different sets of gear and help optimise, with the help of the Summoner Community. To see how much, exactly, 1 point of X stat increases your theoretical DPS, which also includes MD, INT, DET and CRT. But yet, you're so hell bent about SS, that I don't even think you've realised this and instead of helping, you've decided to be a pest and just argue.

For reference, here's the summoner model at the moment. It still doesn't have Pet data.

I don't get our pets, haha. T0rin will need to clarify. I won't be able to hit 700 Spell Speed without radically changing my baseline stats.

EDIT: Actually Dervy, I'm not seeing where T0rin said Spell Speed affected Pet Damage in any of his testing unless it wasn't last night or I'm blind. Based off our exchange this morning, it totally could be the latter.

We were talking in private