DRK - SS vs Det ?

[Giantbane]

SS also doesn't effect our spells whatsoever. Unmend, Unleash & Abyssal get no benefit.

I prefer crit > det > SS now, SS tends to run me out of TP even faster

Maybe it's less of an issue if you've got a pocket NIN running with you.

[Phoenicia]

No. No no. This is just a fallacy and the wrong way of thinking. You have to average stuff out over time. Yes, Det increases every hit and Crit might only increase 10% of your hits, but if the Det you have only increases every hit by 1% then the crit will be better.

You cannot say "det/sks is better because crit is only a chance". You have to have exact figures. 10% crit chance at +50% bonus is a 5% increase in damage, period (I'm not sure on what the actual crit damage of this would be, just for the sake of example). If the same amount of Det were to increase your damage by less than 5%, the crit would be the better choice.

Crit now increases chance AND damage by the same percentage. SO if you have enough to increase chance by 10%, your crit damage also increased by 10%. Base chance is 4.95% and base crit damage is 145%.

I then tested identical tier foods one with crit other with ss at the same max lvl. Crit was still 10% but with SS I gained ~120 dps. Why? With the new change to SS effecting DoT's was a massive boost...Salt the earth and scourge both increased by 20dps alone...that's 40 combined

I'm sorry, I find it hard to believe that food alone increased your DPS by as much as 120. Food doesn't provide 10% of our total stats increase as much as it would increase your DPS by over 15%. At most I would think food is 3~5% increase.

Also, DRK has severe TP issues, adding skill speed will only mean you won't even parse for 2m45s. You will probably floor at 2 minutes flat.

[Violette]

Snip

2mins 30s with the new blood weapon as opposed to 2mins 12s of eld.

As for scaling, the reason that SS on blm is more highly favoured regardless is because more hits = more chance to crit. More chances to crit => crit being more worth while and more dependable as a high damage modifier. That being said, as det is now 1-1-1 with SS and Crit, SS is still king, crit/det is running in at ROUGHLY the same value. However, given det scales linearly and crit scales with a negative modifier (each point of crit is less effective than previous point), even with SS counteracting that (each SS point is more effective dps wise than the previous) it's something like SS >det >(just) crit, but the math will be out soonish

The SS modifier on damage isn't as high as people think, it's simply there to make the stat not dead on summoners and bards. Look at the mch stat weights, they only value SS at 0.02, as opposed to the 0.14-16 of crit/det.

[Phoenicia]

2mins 30s with the new blood weapon as opposed to 2mins 12s of eld.

As for scaling, the reason that SS on blm is more highly favoured regardless is because more hits = more chance to crit. More chances to crit => crit being more worth while and more dependable as a high damage modifier. That being said, as det is now 1-1-1 with SS and Crit, SS is still king, crit/det is running in at ROUGHLY the same value. However, given det scales linearly and crit scales with a negative modifier (each point of crit is less effective than previous point), even with SS counteracting that (each SS point is more effective dps wise than the previous) it's something like SS >det >(just) crit, but the math will be out soonish

The SS modifier on damage isn't as high as people think, it's simply there to make the stat not dead on summoners and bards. Look at the mch stat weights, they only value SS at 0.02, as opposed to the 0.14-16 of crit/det.

My post was before knowing about the BW changes. Still, Skill Speed will still manage to make BW a TP loss instead of the slight TP gain at 0 Skill Speed.

Your BLM stat priority is VERY old. Spell speed stopped being "king" and lost favor to Determination with the 2.3 potency changes BLM got, their stat priority became Det >= SS > Crit. Only reason you'd go for Spell speed over Det was due to gear having more spell speed than determination pre-3.0. Check this resource. Too bad he's not updating it anymore.

With 3.0 changes to ratio of determination in gear and to crit as a stat. With the addition of Ley Lines, BLM stats are probably DET > Crit >= SS.

Also crit doesn't scale with a negative modifier. Each and every point of crit adds 0.0232558%. Yes, the more points you have is less of an increase in DPS compared to previous points, but that can be said about all stats (WD, Main stat, Det and Crit) with SS being the exception.

According to Dervy's analysis page, Skill/Spell speed affects DoT multiplicatively as it is multiplied as a "buff" into the damage formula. So I can safely assume SS affects DoTs better than Determination... at least past a certain Threshold.

[Zorthos]

Just basing it off my experience. Again not saying no one is right or wrong just it's the difference I personally see amongst the different stats. Personally for me as a secondary ss works out well for what I'm doing.

[AeresSilverfox]

I don't do the math and all that nitty gritty stuff. But, the way i gear my DRK is simple.
Pick gear with accuracy, critical hit or determination.
Minimise parry.
Works for me. I am now at 573 accuracy, 692 critical hit, 367 determination. Without food.
This has taken me through A1S (cleared) at the moment.

[MythToken]

Please note: Determination STILL affects auto-attacks.

WAR: Get SS to 470+ for the 9GCD zerk,

This i don't believe is true at all, sorry. There have been numerous confirms that Det does not affect AA anymore.

Also SS>det for warrior. SS is never a waste since we have unlimited TP. 500+ ftw

[Instrumentality]

This i don't believe is true at all, sorry. There have been numerous confirms that Det does not affect AA anymore.

3.0 Patch Notes:

[2.0] Player attributes have been adjusted as follows:
Skilspeed and spellspeed now affect damage over time and healing over time effects.
The effect of determination on auto-attacks has been reduced.
Critical hit rate now affects damage dealt with a critical strike.
Certain attributes no longer affect parry or block.

Reduced. Not removed. Please show me this confirmation of zero damage contribution from determination to auto attacks, thank you.

[Alistaire]

I then tested identical tier foods one with crit other with ss at the same max lvl. Crit was still 10% but with SS I gained ~120 dps.

I guarantee you skewed those results by performing better/messing up less in your test with the speed food. 120 dps increase from food? That's the kind of statement that makes you lose all credibility.

This i don't believe is true at all, sorry. There have been numerous confirms that Det does not affect AA anymore.

Also SS>det for warrior. SS is never a waste since we have unlimited TP. 500+ ftw

Running out of TP was never the only problem with skill speed. Pound for pound, it just doesn't boost your dps as much as equal amounts of crit or det do.

[Dante_V]

The stat weights for all classes so far have shown Crit > Det > SS in terms of damage weight with them all being somewhat homogenized in output. Where is Dervy when you need him?

Beyond that due to the lack of same ilvl gear and the high value of str after reaching the vit meta, there is no instance of min/maxing that becomes relevant at this point until more pieces are released. You should always be going with the higher ilvl item for now.

As far as the secondaries in themeselves:

The testing for SS and its affects on dots has shown that the increase in damage is very minor at the current ilvls. This may change in the future as we acquire higher stat caps, at one point the same thing was shown with det and its damage increases but as we leveled higher and acquired larger amounts the difference began to show at higher levels.

You also need to factor in the changes to crit which are pretty big as now crit increases the damage of crits and the rate of crits as opposed to just the former. This means that with or without a native crit rate increase (Internal release, battle litany, dps stance) crit will retain a high value.

As far as SS goes on a drk i believe that Blood Weapon to lessen it's total weight. Then there is also the TP floor which creates a point of very limited returns and the fact that while BW does lower TP consumption the Drk still has no native TP regen cool down or CC skill. SS in practice seems to be a stat that has a "sweet spot" on a lot of classes in regard to allowing x gcds under a certain cool down or dot timing but I've yet to see any tests or theories on this for drk. It should be balanced against the tp floor if no other prevailing factor can be cited.

Determination was nerfed but from all of the weight tests I've seen so far it is still heavier than SS.

There is little room for secondary trading on a horizontal level at this point due to the weight of Str being fairly huge in comparison and a lack of comparable sets in terms of ilvl. Currently the pentamelded 150 slaying accessories melded with vit provide the highest weights for right side total and the there is only one set of ilvl 200 gear so min/maxing "like" sets of left side gear isn't really possible unless you have access to the 210 pieces and the materials to upgrade the eso gear. I do think we will be getting a new 200 set with the 24 man raid coming out so this will likely provide us with a lvl 200 min/max set outside of the raid.

TL;DR
The high weight of Str and the lack of comparable ilvl gear makes min/maxing as simple as choosing the highest ilvl piece available and until we get more than one set at a certain ilvl this isn't going to change. I've yet to see a single left side tank piece were the secondaries from a lower ilvl piece outweigh the main stat increase from the higher level piece so you should absolutely be going with the highest ilvl item as meeting the accuracy cap really seems to be a non issue with the gear sets available.