PLD dps needs to be buffed, current dps a joke

[MeeYow]

You don't seem to have the faintest understanding of the tank meta or how PLD's low DPS isn't compensated for with significantly better defenses so I think I'll just go with "stupid".

PLD 55, XIV pads has a snapshot of WAR from when it was 50, no dreadwyrm. At a guess I'd chalk it up to a lack of progression experience rather than anything else.

Doesn't matter either way, let's not derail.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The tank meta is, last I checked, "DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPSDPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS DPS HOW'S MY PARSE?", or at least that's the impression I'd get if I only looked at your thread. The actual meta is to stack enough survivability as to survive the strongest hit plus an auto attack, then to put the rest into damage, adapting for the healers needs as necessitated.

[Phoenicia]

I see paladins have stooped low enough to call others who don't agree with them "stupid". Pity.

Anyways, PLD DPS is FINE! SE just recently fixed AST because it needed fixing. They also addressed DRK's TP issues (While not touching their mitigation, apparently they think it's fine?). They also addressed MNK's DPS. However, they did not touch PLD, apparently they see it is fine where it is.

Leaving the whole defensive tank aside, also not using dummy parses that some people choose to ignorantly deny its indicative value, let's look at ACTUAL data collected from different groups around all servers. I'm quoting the other thread here:

Actual Alexander Savage tank DPS numbers
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sLaoo/pubhtml#

Highest DPS for A1S:
WAR 929.28
DRK 672.52
PLD 720.71

Kind of odd DRK's so low on this fight but I'm guessing none of the prases have OT DRKs for phase 1.

Highest DPS for A2S:
WAR 1281.67
PLD 808.36
DRK 1020.15

PLD AoE is very bad.

Highest DPS for A3S:
WAR 931.93
PLD 755.90
DRK 776.65

warrior leading the pack again.

As can be seen, PLD is at DRK's neck when it comes to DPS. So obviously, PLD's DPS is fine.

This thread REALLY belongs to a page that isn't number 1 on the thread list. DRG mains that can't play PLD or butt hurts that are salty that PLD was dropped from 2 fights out of 4 world first groups should really stop complaining. Otherwise MNKs, NINs, MCH, SMNs, BLMs and lolASTs should all open up threads complaining that they weren't included in some of the world first groups so they get "equal rights". This thread is ridiculous and pumping it is even more ridiculous. Should I go back and pump every thread about a tank needing help? The whole first page will suddenly be flooded by threads posting about how some other tank class is "complete crap" and are asking for help. Hint: It's not PLD.

[Sapphidia]

The only thing PLD needs is an adjustment to enmity to allow them to use their other combos without fear of losing aggro and an adjustment to clemency since as it stands the skill is almost useless due to getting interrupted or having the person you're healing getting topped off before your cast is done.

I think I have to agree here really. Our dps in optimal situations where we're allowed to fully dps is pretty decent, just we often -can't- because our dps rotation is the lowest threat output of the tanks, coupled with losing far more potential dps than the other tanks by swapping in our threat rotation. If a Paladin was more consistantly able to do the Goring/Royal/Royal combo in sword oath without fear of losing threat if they hadnt spent 30 seconds doing Shield oath Halones then it would help a tonne.

I still feel like somehow the answer is in Shield Swipe, as paladin OT DPS is okay bar the TP drain. If we could get some kind of TP reduction on par with the Blood Weapon buff then we don't need any actual DPS more as an OT. As an MT though, maybe buffing Shield Swipe to be a DPS increase to hit when tanking and buffing its threat so we need to Halone less would solve all the issues.

Right now Shield Swipe is purely for easing TP drain, as it's both a DPS loss AND a threat loss over alternative options. If it was always the best button to push (even by a tiny amount) we'd be in a much better place.

[TraeSnow]

Snip

If they follow the same setup as my raid group, it is actually more beneficial to have the Pally as the OT for the first part of A1.
I parsed both the Pally in my group as MT and DRK as OT, and then switched them and parsed again.
DRK looses very little DPS while being the MT. (He lost about 80 dps?)
Whereas the Pally gained 300 dps. (He was only parsing 350ish as MT for first part, but as OT he was parsing 650).

Pallies don't have "BAD" dps perse, they just have bad TANK dps. They can't maintain the same high numbers as a DRK and WAR can while tank. If they aren't tanking and are in Sword Oath, then their dps is just fine.

[Sapphidia]

As can be seen, PLD is at DRK's neck when it comes to DPS. So obviously, PLD's DPS is fine.

There's truth in this, but also in what TraeSnow posted. Paladin -theoretical- DPS is fine. We don't need any bigger potencies on anything. DPS in sword oath as OT is 100% fine. It would be nice to have some kind of TP refund of similar impact to the blood weapon buff when in Sword Oath, because when tanking we have Shield Swipe (kinda). But that's all.

Our AOE dps is terrible... that's kind of the point, and has always been the case with Paladins. DRK having an advantage here is fine as Paladin unquestionably mitigates the most damage in situations with big AOE add packs.

The issue we have as paladins is we have a much lower dps -floor- rather than a low ceiling. We sacrifice SO MUCH of our potential DPS in order to maintain threat compared to the other tanks. It's part of the main reason DRKs often are parsed doing more damage as MT - they can just do their optimal DPS rotation with minimal threat adjustment and the only real difference is whether they need to be in Grit or not. The damage difference between swapping out a delerium for a power slash combo is minimal (10 potency) and dropping Grit for DPS only adds the use of Blood Weapon.

Paladins though... Not only does our threat combo do noticeably less threat/damage than War/Drks (balanced for when Paladins just spammed halone combo all teh time) but paladins lose a huge amount of potency when they can't do Royal Authorities and have to swap in a Halone for threat reasons (80 potency difference). There's also a much higher difference in DPS between Sword/Shield oath due to how impactful the 50 potency auto attack boosts are.

Paladins do NOT need a DPS/potency increase on any of their abilities. What they really COULD do with is a substantial threat boost on certain things that mean they can actually do their DPS moves more consistantly and not just in situations where there's a huge threat lead or a ninja is spamming their transfer stuff all the time. It's the consistancy thing.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

This is where I agree with you. PLD's base potency on their attacks is relatively high.

I posted in the other threads (I think the tank balance thread having the one I elaborated on the most) that what PLD needs is adjustment to aggro and some QoL changes. Mainly the multipliers on Savage Blade and RoH.

PLD aggro issue is three fold:

1- Enmity bonus is on the lowest potency combo in the PLD's arsenal. As opposed to WAR having it being the highest.
2- Having lower multipliers on Savage Blade (x3.0 as opposed to x3.5 on the counter parts) and RoH (x5.0 vs x5.5).
3- Due to the second point, PLD needs to use MORE RoH combos than the other tanks would need to use their BB/PS combos. This goes back to the first point where PLD using more RoH is detrimental while WAR using BB is beneficial in terms of DPS.

I honestly am surprised SE didn't address this in 3.07. If I am to get into their heads, I think their reasoning may be the following:

1- PLD's RA combo has Savage Blade in it.
2- PLD's rotation always includes Circle of Scorn (250 potency x3.0 enmity).
3- Shield Swipe. Unique to PLD, every enmity skill has a counter part on the other tanks except Shield Swipe.

Regardless of their reasons, PLD aggro issues are there. It is literally the only tank that can't just start a fight in DPS stance without help. Otherwise PLD spends more time in Shield Oath. But since PLD, unlike the other tanks, has no constant damage increase buff (Maim/Darkside), it has no way to mitigate ShO damage penalty. Ending up with more DPS loss trying to mitigate its inherent lower aggro problem.

On the up side, PLD has the most potent DPS stance amongst the tanks.

TL;DR: PLD has problems, like every other class! But, DPS is not one of them!

[Galgarion]

If I recall correctly, (having only perused the reddit thread lightly) the first two world clears of AS4 were shaaaarply gear gated. As in both guilds were making masterful progress and then slammed into a brick wall that couldn't be hurdled over until they were swimming in Savage gear, which is why it took so long. And if that's the case, then how is a Pally's innate dps at fault? Gear gating shuts down everyone: claiming its your class alone that suffers, when there's a big paper trail saying otherwise just comes across as a snifty attempt to gain an unneeded buff.

[MeeYow]

Been sat in the editing screen for a long while so likely a bit out of date but:

Sigh off we go.

I see paladins have stooped low enough to call others who don't agree with them "stupid". Pity.

So, right at the top of this page I have a post explicitly stating that it isn't just "ermagerd stupid", but that not actually having used the class for lv60 progression nor any apparent signs of tank raiding at all.
It was a poor post though, if you come in to a 45 page discussion and say "stack moar str" and expect it to be some massive revelation that nobody had considered then.....yeah.....also, pentamelds.

Anyways, PLD DPS is FINE! SE just recently fixed AST because it needed fixing. They also addressed DRK's TP issues (While not touching their mitigation, apparently they think it's fine?). They also addressed MNK's DPS. However, they did not touch PLD, apparently they see it is fine where it is.

It took a while for DRG to get buffs in 2.x, SE have openly admitted that NIN is due for a tp fix AND they are currently working on adjusting tanks, only emnity fixes have been discussed but saying "if it needed fixing it would have been fixed" is kind of a non argument given what the dev team have already said.

Leaving the whole defensive tank aside, also not using dummy parses that some people choose to ignorantly deny its indicative value, let's look at ACTUAL data collected from different groups around all servers. I'm quoting the other thread here:

Where to begin, those numbers got called out as wrong about 3 posts in, don't account for ilv, raid comp, also I notice neither Elysium or Lucrezia are on there.....
I mean, am I seriously supposed to believe a source that says the world 4th place A1S PLD parse is 358.95? Heck according to that I am the somewhere in the region of second/third top dps PLD in the world !

This thread REALLY belongs to a page that isn't number 1 on the thread list. DRG mains that can't play PLD or butt hurts that are salty that PLD was dropped from 2 fights out of 4 world first groups should really stop complaining. Otherwise MNKs, NINs, MCH, SMNs, BLMs and lolASTs should all open up threads complaining that they weren't included in some of the world first groups so they get "equal rights".

This whole paragraph makes the post feel like a kneejerk reaction, I personally:
Was a WAR main until my 3.0 static required I change.
Finished 1.x with Bravura.
Will be omnitanking, of course, but Eso tomes be Eso tomes.

Also, the objection (which I personally do not have) with the removal of PLD is more along the lines of groups having to adjust their classes to clear floors, the only other class this happened to consistently was MNK, which got buffed.

This thread is ridiculous and pumping it is even more ridiculous. Should I go back and pump every thread about a tank needing help? The whole first page will suddenly be flooded by threads posting about how some other tank class is "complete crap" and are asking for help. Hint: It's not PLD.

True, if you went right back to the archives they would say nerf THM, then buff GLA - because PLD didn't exist, THEN it would say buff PLD, with the exception of whatthehellearly1.0 and patch 2.0 itself, WAR has always been top tier. As for DRK, most of the threads even if they do not start that way, develop into a plea for better synergy, not necessarily outright buffs.

OK, so finally I have to ask, have you actually read the thread since your last post? (Which btw missed out T1 no feed burn after split made vastly easier by double pld in 2.0)
The reason I ask is because I made a post at the bottom of page 43 going into a lot more depth than "ermagerd low DEEPS".
Also the entire top half of pg44 is along the lines of "SE please don't do a 180 in the second savage alex and make it all physical, don't do the same to DRK as you have done to us", does that sound salty to you? :/


Also, name drop for giggles: speaking of world first groups, Minuh promised to marry me when we were in Legacy together and then transferred server. I am still heart broken. QQ

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I have done my good deed for today: This thread has been successfully derailed back into a thread for meaningful discussion. \0/

Black Hanekawa be praised.