Tank Balance

[Alahra]

And it's definitely not "challenging". Maybe that's why the endgame challenge as a tank is to do the max DPS while surviving.

Which is by design, I think. They realize that in terms of social pressure, tanking is seen as an "important" job and a lot of people who don't tank choose not to because of that pressure. That's why the tank jobs (with WAR being something of the exception for variety) aren't as demanding rotationally as DPS classes are, so that they have less to worry about and (hopefully) more people can learn to like tanking.

The current setup works pretty well, I think: serious tanks can go all in for DPS maximization, and those that are just tanking for their roulettes or friends can get by just doing the meat shield thing. They need to do something regarding parity in the OT role and probably to make PLD more desirable in 8-mans, though.

[Reynhart]

The current setup works pretty well, I think: serious tanks can go all in for DPS maximization

For me, the second part of your sentence completely contradicts the first.
And I fear this will bite us really hard if they decide to add other tanks in the next expansions.

Adding a real "gameplay" for mitigation would lift a lot of complains because player skill would "blur" the gap between each tank, like it does with DPS.

[Alahra]

For me, the second part of your sentence completely contradicts the first.
And I fear this will bite us really hard if they decide to add other tanks in the next expansions.

Care to explain how it's a contradiction? SE wants tanking to be approachable, and at it's base level, it is. You don't have to optimize damage to tank beyond knowing your enmity combos. However, those tanks that are dedicated to the job and want to get more out of it have a lot of room to push for damage, learn how to squeeze in periods in DPS stance while MTing, and so on. In my mind, it's a solid enough compromise and ultimately probably good for keeping tanks available for content.

[Reynhart]

Care to explain how it's a contradiction? SE wants tanking to be approachable, and at it's base level, it is.

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

[Alahra]

I don't think it works to make "serious tanking" solely focusing on DPS, because it puts all tank in a bottleneck.
We should have more ways of improving so that each player can pick the tank that match their playstyle.

Well, in that regard, yes, it doesn't work for serious tanks that don't like to DPS, but SE is kind of stuck in the middle. If they make defensive tanking too active (following WoW's example), it will reduce the number of tanks in the long run for non-raid content (say what you will about queue times for DPS here, they have always been and still are much longer in WoW), as people won't want the "responsibility" on top of the more complex playstyle.

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones. It works even if it's not to your taste.

[Reynhart]

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones.

I don't deny that. But with three tanks (And probably more in the future), there's also room to differentiate serious tanks from other serious tanks.

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

I really don't like the "If you think your job is too weak, play another one" but I'm totally fine with "This job's gameplay doesn't suit you, go play another one"

[Sapphidia]

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave, and couldnt resist running around and bragging about how big a crit they just got against a gaelicat or something. Whereas I was like... meh.. just does damage, whatever.

On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon - here was a cool active mitigation button I could press regularly when tanking to mitigate big hits, it felt turtly and awesome. I was 100 times more excited for Sheltron on my PLD than I was for Fell Cleave on my WAR.

Not going to be hanging up my sword and shield anytime soon, regardless of balance.

[Alahra]

WAR is the "DPS" tank, so the "serious tanks that like to DPS" will probably go WAR. Since PLD is the "Defensive" tank, let it be the "active defensive tank". This way, every serious tanks can be pleased (Well not every...but more of them).
As for "casual" tanks, they'll just play any tank they want without pushing them to their limit.

That's certainly true to a degree (though things like class flavor and the like factor into people's choices as well). I don't foresee them making PLD significantly more complex, though, either through DPS or more active mitigation as it's also the "gateway" tank. With the lowest skill barrier of the three, it's the easiest for someone new to tanking to pick up and use, and even perhaps to enjoy all the way to 60. Granted, they've shown willingness to change simple gameplay styles (BLM from ARR to HW changed significantly, for instance), so it's something that could happen in the future.

Got to agree with Reynhart.

A good testing ground for a player's mindset is their reaction to getting the various new skills. Most aggressive WARs I know were just jumping for joy when they got Fell Cleave... -snip- On the contrary, when I got Sheltron I was over the moon...

It's funny, actually. I prefer defensive tanking (well, I prefer avoidance tanking, but that's not a solid design avenue in games like these), and I've always preferred PLD to WAR, but I just can't get excited for PLD anymore. I think leveling DRK first killed it for me, as it's a bit more active, and that's made PLD feel really boring now. It's unfortunate because in terms of flavor, PLD is my preferred tank, but gameplay wise, I'm having a hard time enjoying it now. Fell Cleave excites me enough that I'm leveling WAR occasionally when I get bored, but it took me forever to push PLD from 52-54, as Shelltron left me really unexcited. I'm not looking forward to anything on it ability wise, sadly.

[RecklessLion]

Things as they are now is a compromise, this much is true, but there is at least plenty of room for serious tanks to differentiate themselves from the more casual ones. It works even if it's not to your taste.

You couldn't of said that better. I fully agree with your comments! It compromise for the most part in trying to keep casual players well casual tanks and not wait till the next day in hopes of a tank. I don't think SE is in the middle they plan this out well. Forces people to go outside the box. Now this would be a major problem if you could only be one class and have to recreate a character just to remain relevant during gameplay. The best changes I can thinkn of adding content where all tanks can be relevant. One with dps checks another with a great need of defense, another with insane mechanics to keep you on your toes. That way all three tanks are utilized and no one get left behind.