Why do the writers hate Foulques?

[Samcaesar]

Yeah, Gridanians relationship with the Elementals remind me more of abusive households: As long as they don't do anything to upset the abuser then everything is fine ... for the most part. Heck even then their best efforts aren't good enough and it takes a skilled Padjal to pacify them for the time being.

To be honest, most of Eorzea is terrifying. You could be killed in Ul'dah in a blink of the eye just because you got in Lolorito's way, killed in Limsa Lominsa for not following the Admiral (The whole point of the Rogues guild and all), killed in Gridania for accidentally making the Elementals mad, or killed in Ishgard because you made some Noble/High up in the church mad.. Like.. I kinda wanna go live somewhere hidden in La Noscea, Dravania, or Thanalan away from the main cities please.

[Walluh]

It's a good thing we're basically the messiah on steroids, and we could basically level a citystate's military singlehandedly if needed.

[Naunet]

The point of the OP kinda flew over your head I think, but.. Foulques in no way had to be the antagonist, neither did he really have to die. With the end of the Lancer questline the moral of the story isn't just "Don't be like Foulques!" but also "Don't get mad at people who are either complacent or aiding in oppression" which.. Just seems like bad writing because we know the Duskwights don't deserve the stuff thrown at him. If your lesson to Foulques is "Don't be mad about the oppression of your people or we'll beat the living snot out of you/kill you til you be good" you're not doing a heroic thing.

Exactly. It's why the quest felt so out of place, as generally the quests are pretty good at placing you at least in the role of "good person" (even if the writing leaves something to be desired). But I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel like a good person when I'm being asked to kick a guy for trying to fight back against his oppressors.

[ChazNatlo]

Let's clarify something here. Foulques was in no way some righteous crusader of the underclass and oppressed trying to fight back against his oppressors. He was an asshole with a tragic backstory who went in to the Guild, beat a bunch of people up and wanted to show them he had learned a better way to fight. A way which was ultimately self destructive and harmful to those around you. He is that asshole in DF running head first into the mobs to force the tanks hand because "Don't worry guys, I got this." He got shown up by the WoL and Blandface McGuildleader against the Big Baor and broke. Is he a tragic figure? Yes. Is he the Hero Gotham Needs? No, no he is not.

[Ayuhra]

Let's clarify something here. Foulques was in no way some righteous crusader of the underclass and oppressed trying to fight back against his oppressors. He was an asshole with a tragic backstory who went in to the Guild, beat a bunch of people up and wanted to show them he had learned a better way to fight. A way which was ultimately self destructive and harmful to those around you. He is that asshole in DF running head first into the mobs to force the tanks hand because "Don't worry guys, I got this." He got shown up by the WoL and Blandface McGuildleader against the Big Baor and broke. Is he a tragic figure? Yes. Is he the Hero Gotham Needs? No, no he is not.

I don't think anyone here is arguing he's a good guy, we're arguing he's an interesting guy and deserved a better story. The Duskwight thing deserves to be in a story darn it!

[elemental10]

It's not really about him being a Duskwight. More like him threatening innocent people's lives because he wanted other people to understand him and his bravery philosophy.

His past was tragic, yes. But what the story focuses on is actually on his "trials," the ones that you beat and he claimed them to be courage. His perspectives of courage is to charge ahead with no fear of death but what the guild leader wanted to show is actually to stand tall against fear. The saying for this is, "there is nothing to fear except fear itself," rather than "Courage will prevail over all obstacle."

The difference is this thin line: Courage is not all about strength and the prevailence against fear, rather it is to look at the face of fear and admit that you are not afraid.

The guild leader wanted to fix Foulques but he didn't accept it. Instead, he went out of his way to get other people on his side so he can have other people understand his situation... which he succeeded with OP, it seems.

For me, all his story is shouting out, "I'm so tragic and my life sucks and no one understand me" and expects everyone to suddenly come at him with sympathies and 15 million dollars and gets mad when nobody does exactly that.

[ChazNatlo]

I don't think anyone here is arguing he's a good guy, we're arguing he's an interesting guy and deserved a better story. The Duskwight thing deserves to be in a story darn it!

This is true. He was the most interesting character in the quest line.

Mostly though I was arguing against this:

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel like a good person when I'm being asked to kick a guy for trying to fight back against his oppressors.

He wasn't fighting back against his oppressors. He was showing off how much better his way of... err... Lancering... was than theirs. I honestly don't think that the Foulques that raided the guildhouse gave one care about how other Duskwrights are treated.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

It seemed like he challenged most of them, most of the newbies accepting to his challenge, only for him to kick their butts, like he's obviously not just some always attacking people, otherwise he would've attacked the Guildmaster.He's not anywhere near Batman (Because like oh god, please don't compare Batman to anything an oppressed group could call a hero), but let's not delegitimize his struggles because he was a jerk about it (and then went completely evil gaining powers completely outside his abilities for no apparent reason apparently?). Not like fighting him and constantly acting like he's a jerk for no good reason solved anything either. Why does he have to die and why does absolutely nothing change either from his actions or his death?

Plus, like what's different between him and the way we fight against the Garleans? Or the way we fight against the Kobolds? Or the way we fight against the dragons for Ishgard? We definitely do lots of headstrong, "I'm the WoL, I can handle this" sorta stuff, and sure we can back it up, but we're not necessarily alone in it all.

I don't think anyone here is arguing he's a good guy, we're arguing he's an interesting guy and deserved a better story. The Duskwight thing deserves to be in a story darn it!

I don't know, I don't think he's necessarily a bad guy either. What else are you going to do after being screwed over so many times because you're a Duskwight? No one takes you seriously and trivializes your issues even though they're like clearly valid.. I doubt him being a good little Duskwight and being quiet about it all really would help anything either.. And no one really takes his issues with any validity in the first place, so even if he did keep calm and all, he still wouldn't change squat because no one really seemed to give a darn.. Like people talk about how he should've done this or should've done that, but I really don't think any of that would've helped.

Snip

His situation? You mean like him and other Duskwights being treated like crap for being duskwights? Like.. Everyone seems to mention his fears, but what ARE they anyways? Like he's not all that good or something at being a lancer?

Plus like, he's not wrong, duskwights are treated like crap in Gridania and the way some players are dismissive of his anger and issues "The actual issue is he's doing courage wrong! It's not about him being a duskwight", is only kind of proving his point. It seems way more like "Hey treat me and other duskwights with respect, or else I see no reason to treat you with respect either."

[ChazNatlo]

Character limit

Yeah, the batman line was me being pithy. I was talking about his heroism, not directly comparing him to Batman in regards to characterization.

Honestly, from everything he said, I never got the impression he was trying to get back one for Girdania's poor race relations issues. He was trying to get back at the Lancer Guild's hollow false courage that caused his former compatriots' to take advantage of said racism. He isn't there to help anyone. He is an interesting character, he is a tragic one, and Gods do I wish I could have helped him and wish I could fix the racism in Girdania.

And What's this about his options being to lash out against his oppressors or stay silent and keep things bad about. He did stay silent. The only time it really came out that his actions were race motivated were right near the very end. "I'm doing this because the pervasive racism of this country has left me with no other options." One line and yes, he's a semi heroic rebel correcting the wrongs of a society that threw him under the bus the first moment he became inconvenient. Till he DOES speak out,he a belligerent who happens to be a member of an oppressed race. We're in this Mess because he DIDN'T speak up.

[Naunet]

The only time it really came out that his actions were race motivated were right near the very end. "I'm doing this because the pervasive racism of this country has left me with no other options." One line and yes, he's a semi heroic rebel correcting the wrongs of a society that threw him under the bus the first moment he became inconvenient. Till he DOES speak out,he a belligerent who happens to be a member of an oppressed race. We're in this Mess because he DIDN'T speak up.

He stole money because he was starving. I'd be willing to bet he was starving because he's part of an oppressed minority in Gridanian culture. No one wants a Duskwight around. His race, while not always explicitly mentioned, is at the crux of his struggles.