Why do the writers hate Foulques?

[Alihabra]

Admittedly it was a while ago that I did the quests and I've forgotten a lot of the details, but I'm going to have to agree with OP here. I always felt kinda off about how he was treated. It always seemed like no one really cared about him at all. Ywain basically treats his issues with the same indifference as you treat an animal at the zoo - by pointing it out and saying "that's a tragic backstory. let's observe." I felt like if anyone showed him the slightest amount of empathy, the story may have had a bit more effect when he goes crazy and tries to kill us.

At the same time though I definitely can't condone his actions - the whole "cool motive, still murder" situation.

In the end I really can't support either side here. both have clearly done bad things, it just that the story only seems to label one side as explicitly "bad."

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

I liked the Lancer questline because while Foulques is a tragic character, his hands aren't exactly clean, he did bad things due to the blatant racism of Duskwight, which made him more interesting, I do think just having him fall off a cliff and have everything he said brushed off was bs, since not even the guildmaster seems to acknowledge why he acted the way he did other than a meager "alas poor Foulques" I think redemption would have left a bigger impact, because honestly him committing suicide felt half-assed and ultimately solved nothing.

I loved the guy btw! I thought his trials were great.

"hey, having trouble with those wolves?"
*throws blindness bottle at me*
"there you go"

Foulques pls

[Kallera]

I would also like to point out that the (in)convienient part of MMORPG stories is that you can have characters attempt to join the system to "change it from within" then have absolutly nothing happen at all, well maybe a npc or two to say that the check is in the mail. Status Quo is the god of the citystates now, make of it what you will.

[Sylentmana]

I was a little disappointed the Foulques went the way of the Disney villain. I had hoped that he would surrender and I could take him in and perhaps he could be redeemed, but no. Gravity got the last laugh. There is one issue about that last fight that really deserves to be questioned, though. How in the world was he able to create fields of ice and summon the undead? Last I checked, necromancy was not in a lancers repertoire.

[Naunet]

I was a little disappointed the Foulques went the way of the Disney villain. I had hoped that he would surrender and I could take him in and perhaps he could be redeemed, but no. Gravity got the last laugh. There is one issue about that last fight that really deserves to be questioned, though. How in the world was he able to create fields of ice and summon the undead? Last I checked, necromancy was not in a lancers repertoire.

Best my husband and I could figure is, SE was trying to hammer in the "Oh my god look at how evil he is" line. Which, already feeling sympathetic to him, just kinda grated on my nerves more than anything. xD I feel like that was a cheap tactic.

On another note, wow I love that I woke up this morning to find such awesome discussion in my thread.

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

[ChazNatlo]

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

This is where we differ. I do think they wanted us to feel sorry for Foulques at the end. If they wanted us to see him as a villain, they'd not have given him a tragic backstory to be revealed just before he took a header off a cliff. The problem wasn't that they didn't want us to sympathize with him. They gave us the full depth of his sympathetic backstory far too late, like they wanted us to regret seeing him in such a poor light, if that is what we did.

I generally see Foulques, the poor man who tried to do the right thing as the first victim of Foulques "Courage is charging headlong into the fire, and screw the Lancer's guild"'s quiet rampage. If you set out on revenge ((If it wasn't revenge, he wouldn't have targeted the Lancer's guild)) you first dig two graves.

[Gaiussenpai]

I liked this sort of stuff during 2.0 story it showed hat the city states themselves where not white and not some good guys to the super evil Garlean empire but both are morally grey ( Garleans darker grey but still) and it seems they continued that with Ishgard.


Also Nidhogg wasn't even close to justified his actions after he basically threw his brood, forced or killed his brother's brood for a thousand years against Ishgard to punish them for the betrayal when Thordans knights didn't stomach it well land some of the original left and even the pope said the betrayal was wrong.

[Belhi]

Also Nidhogg wasn't even close to justified his actions after he basically threw his brood, forced or killed his brother's brood for a thousand years against Ishgard to punish them for the betrayal when Thordans knights didn't stomach it well land some of the original left and even the pope said the betrayal was wrong.

I wasn't trying to defend Nidhogg's actions but if seen in context you can understand why he sees mortals as he does. This is a dragon that has lived through brutal abuse of his race, first by the Allag and then from betrayal by the Elezen who became Ishgard. The betrayal of Thordan simply cemented this for him. His mistake is he judges all mortals because of the actions of a relative few. His hate has consumed him and he is willing to sacrifice his own peoples future for a hate buried in the past. Being trapped in the past seems to be a common issue for the celestial dragons. Every one we have met so far is so tied up in events of the past that they fail to tend to their peoples needs in the present.

Then again when we say 'Gridanian's are xenophobic' the same issue applies. Xenophobia is far from universal in Gridania. Hell the current leader of Gridania, Kan-E-Senna saved both Garlean and Alliance wounded in the wake of the Fall of Dalamud. One of her elite guards is one of those former Garlean conscripts she saved.

Best my husband and I could figure is, SE was trying to hammer in the "Oh my god look at how evil he is" line. Which, already feeling sympathetic to him, just kinda grated on my nerves more than anything. xD I feel like that was a cheap tactic.

On another note, wow I love that I woke up this morning to find such awesome discussion in my thread.

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

The issues of the City States are stories we will see play out over a long time. This is true for all three plus Ishgard. We made some major impacts into Ishgard society but its a LONG way from being reformed from it flaws and a zealotry xenophobia that makes Gridania's seem mild. We see small steps. Ul'dah is another example. The issues of Ul'dah's corruption have been a developing plot in the game since 1.0 and they are still playing out across though both the main story, side stories and even job stories.

I also think its important for the narrative of the world that we don't always manage to reform or save lost souls. Not for the sake of sad stories but because those loses set context for our victories. The WoL doesn't always win but s/he always tries and never gives up.

[Naunet]

I also think its important for the narrative of the world that we don't always manage to reform or save lost souls. Not for the sake of sad stories but because those loses set context for our victories. The WoL doesn't always win but s/he always tries and never gives up.

This wasn't a matter of trying and failing to save a lost soul. This was the story presenting a character who had struggled constantly against a society who knocked him down at every opportunity, and then dismissing the character's struggles as hardly worthy of note. I felt like my character was complicit in Gridania's racism, not a good person trying to stop someone from making a decision that could hurt them.

Look at the ARC questline in contrast. Silvairre's surface racism towards non-Wildwood is both acknowledged and treated as a thing to not be admired. Leih struggles with acceptance in a society she is constantly being pushed out of, and her plight is not diminished or ignored by the player character. While the two stories differ in details, there are some shared themes. The difference is in the LNC quest, you are repeatedly encouraged to ignore Foulques and wave away his complaints, and you go along with that. If the WoL was at least able to acknowledge Foulques in a meaningful way, and accept his issues as valid, instead of just nodding as Ywain offers a throw away, "Oh how tragic, moving on," then the story would have had more impact.

[Bishop81]

Being trapped in the past seems to be a common issue for the celestial dragons.

That's because they live ultra long lives. Although it happened 1000s of years ago, to them it seems like yesterday. They have a totally different perspective of time.

Nidhogg is still in a fit of rage over what happened over his brood sister. His brood brother still seem to be in grief.