Why do the writers hate Foulques?

[Sylentmana]

I was a little disappointed the Foulques went the way of the Disney villain. I had hoped that he would surrender and I could take him in and perhaps he could be redeemed, but no. Gravity got the last laugh. There is one issue about that last fight that really deserves to be questioned, though. How in the world was he able to create fields of ice and summon the undead? Last I checked, necromancy was not in a lancers repertoire.

[Gaiussenpai]

I liked this sort of stuff during 2.0 story it showed hat the city states themselves where not white and not some good guys to the super evil Garlean empire but both are morally grey ( Garleans darker grey but still) and it seems they continued that with Ishgard.


Also Nidhogg wasn't even close to justified his actions after he basically threw his brood, forced or killed his brother's brood for a thousand years against Ishgard to punish them for the betrayal when Thordans knights didn't stomach it well land some of the original left and even the pope said the betrayal was wrong.

[Naunet]

I was a little disappointed the Foulques went the way of the Disney villain. I had hoped that he would surrender and I could take him in and perhaps he could be redeemed, but no. Gravity got the last laugh. There is one issue about that last fight that really deserves to be questioned, though. How in the world was he able to create fields of ice and summon the undead? Last I checked, necromancy was not in a lancers repertoire.

Best my husband and I could figure is, SE was trying to hammer in the "Oh my god look at how evil he is" line. Which, already feeling sympathetic to him, just kinda grated on my nerves more than anything. xD I feel like that was a cheap tactic.

On another note, wow I love that I woke up this morning to find such awesome discussion in my thread.

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

[Belhi]

Also Nidhogg wasn't even close to justified his actions after he basically threw his brood, forced or killed his brother's brood for a thousand years against Ishgard to punish them for the betrayal when Thordans knights didn't stomach it well land some of the original left and even the pope said the betrayal was wrong.

I wasn't trying to defend Nidhogg's actions but if seen in context you can understand why he sees mortals as he does. This is a dragon that has lived through brutal abuse of his race, first by the Allag and then from betrayal by the Elezen who became Ishgard. The betrayal of Thordan simply cemented this for him. His mistake is he judges all mortals because of the actions of a relative few. His hate has consumed him and he is willing to sacrifice his own peoples future for a hate buried in the past. Being trapped in the past seems to be a common issue for the celestial dragons. Every one we have met so far is so tied up in events of the past that they fail to tend to their peoples needs in the present.

Then again when we say 'Gridanian's are xenophobic' the same issue applies. Xenophobia is far from universal in Gridania. Hell the current leader of Gridania, Kan-E-Senna saved both Garlean and Alliance wounded in the wake of the Fall of Dalamud. One of her elite guards is one of those former Garlean conscripts she saved.

Best my husband and I could figure is, SE was trying to hammer in the "Oh my god look at how evil he is" line. Which, already feeling sympathetic to him, just kinda grated on my nerves more than anything. xD I feel like that was a cheap tactic.

On another note, wow I love that I woke up this morning to find such awesome discussion in my thread.

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

The issues of the City States are stories we will see play out over a long time. This is true for all three plus Ishgard. We made some major impacts into Ishgard society but its a LONG way from being reformed from it flaws and a zealotry xenophobia that makes Gridania's seem mild. We see small steps. Ul'dah is another example. The issues of Ul'dah's corruption have been a developing plot in the game since 1.0 and they are still playing out across though both the main story, side stories and even job stories.

I also think its important for the narrative of the world that we don't always manage to reform or save lost souls. Not for the sake of sad stories but because those loses set context for our victories. The WoL doesn't always win but s/he always tries and never gives up.

[Naunet]

I also think its important for the narrative of the world that we don't always manage to reform or save lost souls. Not for the sake of sad stories but because those loses set context for our victories. The WoL doesn't always win but s/he always tries and never gives up.

This wasn't a matter of trying and failing to save a lost soul. This was the story presenting a character who had struggled constantly against a society who knocked him down at every opportunity, and then dismissing the character's struggles as hardly worthy of note. I felt like my character was complicit in Gridania's racism, not a good person trying to stop someone from making a decision that could hurt them.

Look at the ARC questline in contrast. Silvairre's surface racism towards non-Wildwood is both acknowledged and treated as a thing to not be admired. Leih struggles with acceptance in a society she is constantly being pushed out of, and her plight is not diminished or ignored by the player character. While the two stories differ in details, there are some shared themes. The difference is in the LNC quest, you are repeatedly encouraged to ignore Foulques and wave away his complaints, and you go along with that. If the WoL was at least able to acknowledge Foulques in a meaningful way, and accept his issues as valid, instead of just nodding as Ywain offers a throw away, "Oh how tragic, moving on," then the story would have had more impact.

[AnaviAnael]

I liked Foulques's story because of how realistic it was in terms of racism and its tragic end. While I did sympathize with him and want a better outcome, having him die hit a lot closer to home. I felt it made a bigger impact.

[Eisen-Zorn]

A few things.

Firstly, many of the antagonists in FF14 have justifiable arguments for their actions Heavensward is full of them.

One could argue both Nidhogg and the Archbishop were justified in there actions. Humans did cruelly and brutally betray the Dragons and this is after what the Allag did to them. The Archbishop was leading a people effectively damned to endless war due to something they were not responable for themselves.

However, the reasons they have don't excuse their actions. Foulques was wronged but his actions were also in the wrong. He took his anger out on all members of the Lancer's Guild rather than those responsible. Foulques is a tragic tale, something which the leader of the Lancer's Guild indicates. He was wronged. How he dealt with it though was also wrong. Its was a sad tale but sometimes sad tales happen. Lets remember that the Lancer's Guild leadership and members Foulques was wronged by don't seem to be the same as the ones there. Foulques was in jail for some time and after that spent more time obsessing over fearlessness before returning to the Guild. The current Guild Leader was a Wood Wailer till recently.

Also remember while wronged he did steal from the Guild which is what started it all. Add to that he targeted new lancers, not old ones and had contempt for those who didn't share his 'fearlessness'.

Secondly, Foulques failed in understanding one of the core lessons of being a lancer and sadly this is the core reason he ended the way he did. He mistook fearlessness with courage and risked peoples live trying to force this view on others. In the end it showed that his fearlessness wasn't fearlessness but denying his fear and as a result when things went wrong he crumbled.

Thirdly, you have different things at work here. There is xenophobia in Gridania. It is sadly one of the issues the city state has much like corruption in Ul'dah and the lawless underbelly of Limsa. This isn't universal and we see many times this attitude changing over time. The acceptance of Adventurers is a good example. The second point which I'd mention since you brought up the Ala Mhigan refugees is the people of Gridania have serious limits on what they can and cannot do. The reason they don't help the Ala Mhigan refugees isn't from cruelty or xenophobia but that the true owners of the forest, the Elementals, have decided that some of those who come to the twelveswood aren't acceptable to live there. Gridanians have to follow the will of the Elementals There is no choice there.

The Elementals aren't evil. They see the world differently though. The wellbeing of nature is first and foremost and the fact that people are trusted to live in the forest is only because Gridanians are willing to place the wellbeing of nature and the forest as important as their own.

Lastly there is a postmoogle quest which I think shows a alternative situation.

We see a pair of Keepers of the Moon who likewise are discriminated against to the point where one has ended up effectively doomed to live as a bandit due to the path survival took her down. When faced with her sisters despair and the xenophobia and frankly corruption of a group of Wood Wailers she decides there needs to be change. However she sates that she will do it by becoming a Wood Wailer herself and growing strong enough so that she can make sure neither those who her sister are now bound to or those who force her there can continue to do so.

Its an example of how we see someone faced with hardship and discrimination choosing to overcome and make things better rather than just lashing out vengefully.

Remember, the reasons why Thordan VII was an antagonist was because:

- He was complacent in the lie told throughout generations by Ishgard's Four Houses.
- He sided with The Ascians halfway to further his own ambitions.
- He and his Heavens Ward, were responsible for Harchefaunt's death.
- He became a Primal.

The Archbishop knew that their religion was a complete lie, but, instead of attempting to reach diplomatic solutions with the dragons, Thordan VII wanted the power to destroy. The Archbishop wanted to destroy the Dragons and The Ascians both while placing himself as a God above his people. It's one of those situations where his motives were good on paper, but the devil was in the details.

As for Gridania? The Lancer quests aren't the only quests there rife with racism and bigotry. The White Mage quests, the archer quests, and even the opening cinematic for characters who start in Gridania. You are immediately warned that Gridania is a beautiful, but unwelcoming place. Most story characters in Gridania go out of their way to constantly remind you that you don't belong there, and they really like reminding you that you're not one of them.

[Kurashiki]

Just want to add my $0.02 that I felt bad for Foulques when I learned of his backstory. Honestly, I had hoped his character might get better after he and the player face the giant boar. When I first played through the quest line I almost thought the player would side with Foulques and train under him or something. Would have been interesting if that had been the case.

[ChazNatlo]

I do feel like I need to make a point clearer, however. I'm not criticizing a story for having morally grey, complex characters. What gets me is that Foulques's issues and the sympathy he stirred in me did not actually seem like they were deliberate on the part of the story. The writers seemed to be doing everything they could to drive home this idea that Foulques is bad and oh he went through lots of crap but he's a bad guy, remember! It's the dismissive way the story addresses deep, complex issues (like the systemic racism in Gridanian society) that bothers me.

This is where we differ. I do think they wanted us to feel sorry for Foulques at the end. If they wanted us to see him as a villain, they'd not have given him a tragic backstory to be revealed just before he took a header off a cliff. The problem wasn't that they didn't want us to sympathize with him. They gave us the full depth of his sympathetic backstory far too late, like they wanted us to regret seeing him in such a poor light, if that is what we did.

I generally see Foulques, the poor man who tried to do the right thing as the first victim of Foulques "Courage is charging headlong into the fire, and screw the Lancer's guild"'s quiet rampage. If you set out on revenge ((If it wasn't revenge, he wouldn't have targeted the Lancer's guild)) you first dig two graves.

[Ayuhra]

By the way, that must be a sight, having Gale up against Foulques.

Enough of a sight that I think Foulques thought Gale was mocking him.



The fact that my character ended up looking so much like Foulques is probably part of why I had a knee jerk reaction to the Lancers. But when I think about it my real issue is Foulques is interesting and the Lancers aren't. The Archery quests have similar themes of bigotry and racism but the characters are all pretty well explored. Foulques is the only fleshed out character in the Lancers Guild and we spend more time with him than Ywain. We know him, we know his suffering and his motives, but we don't know anything about the group that we're supposed to be allied to other than they stab things with spears.

All of that said, as a Duskwight fan I am always eager to see how people feel about Duskwights in the game world. There are very few Duskwights... I think Foulques of the Mists and Jandelaine the Aesthetician are the only named Duskwights I've come across, at least that I can remember. Lancers could have been a good place to explore the racial divide between Wildwoods of Gridania and the Duskwight but it wasn't.

Maybe someday we'll learn more about that.