Why do the writers hate Foulques?

[Samcaesar]

Snip

Yeah.. And we can go into a whole lot with how there may be a good bit of bad writing with Heavensward

"I don't want to reveal the truth because it'll DESTROY ISHGARD" Reveals the truth "Whelp.. Ishgard hasn't imploded on itself *dusts hand* Sorry dad, you were wrong! Ishgard is moving towards progress. Never mind the rampant ignorance on their behalf, blatant hatred and slaughter of heretics even though they were right, and consistent slaughter of the dragons for sport and money. None of that matters because Nidhogg is back, I'm in charge, and we've got the WoL/Middy!" (I REALLY dislike how they write Ishgard and all their issues..)

Who do you expect him to take out his issues on? Most of the stuff he seemed to have done til the climax was goading people into attacking him then showing them he means business, then challenging the guildmaster only to get rejected. Like want to know what would happen if Foulques tried to change any of his issues on "those responsible"? We'd put him down like the mad dog he is, because those responsible ARE the wood wailers and the guild, being apart of Gridanian's racism and at best being complacent to it. Heck, he seemed to really only target new ones because those were the only ones who'd actually fight him, the older ones like the guildmaster seem to know he won't be on the offensive entirely (Because he'd get thrown in jail again or killed a lot sooner), he tries to challenge them only to be met with another "Sorry, nope."

I don't really have much to say on point 2, haven't been through the questline myself and I'm only really aware with how often bad writing is with oppressed groups. But I'd love to know what you mean by "Denying his fear and as a result when things went wrong he crumbled", because I mean sometimes that really just means "Look at what happens when the status quo finally break's X's spirit! Look at them go evil finally and how wrong they always were." (And is often couple with X going "H-how could I be such an idiot.." If they're not killed off).

I'm not entirely sure you're right about the Elementals being the sole decider (Like, they are, but I don't doubt their decision wasn't welcomed) of the Ala Mhigans coming to Gridania... Like the war only occured 80 years ago, I'm sure plenty of Gridanians had parents or grandparents killed in it, which would result in some still fresh feelings in a lot of Gridanians. Plus even then, it's not like all of Gridania's xenophobia/racism stems from the Elementals being Elementals, specifically to the treatment of Moon Keepers and Duskwights (Neither of which the elementals seem to care about too much).

On the postmoogle quest

I really don't see how that's going to solve ANY of those problems though. Moon keepers are still going to be discriminated against and that abusive jerk of a King still is manipulating the other sister.. It really sounds like it's setting up for a future fight scene between the two that's going to end in the same way the lancer quest did "How dare you get mad at those upholding the status quo responsible for your sufferings! You did bad things and now must die for it."

That's the thing though, I don't feel any of these quest lines really address this in a productive way and instead take a whole "Your wrong doings suck, but my wrong doings are okay because I'm the guys you're suppose to relate to." Like.. There's so many better ways to address these issues, and "Changing it from within!" isn't one of them, especially not whenever we see zero changes from it past that.

Like.. I think a lot of people need to recognize, those folks are mad and doing questionable things (Because let's be honest, we do a crap ton of questionable things too, but those are Okay because we're the hero and they're the bad guys).. We're not solving anything with a lot of these solutions (In fact, we might end up making it worse, see all the good we've done with the Kobolds and Limsa Lominsa repeatedly breaking their treaties) and it feels like some really bad writing.

Like, God Forbid we ever end up attacking some racist Gridanian Wood Wailers to help some Duskwights or Moon Keepers in need..

. We're far too "neutral" on issues that don't need neutrality or a "moderate" because that's really only contributing to bad things.

Snip

I mean, I really don't blame you with this assessment.. You kinda see it happen a lot with writing of angry oppressed groups in general though, with the ending being you kind of preserving the awful status quo because the person trying to change it for the better was a big jerk about it (Never minding all the arguably awful things you do for your goals) and the status quo has people you're naturally aligned with (Via them as a quest giver or whatever).

I think you hit the nail on it's head when you go make the "blaming a puppy for biting their abusive owner" bit with Foulques's anger and actions. Like.. What's the point of telling a tail of an oppressed minority if it ends with "Well, they did some things that are Bad, therefore their entire cause is awful and we're just going to ignore the actual issues"? A whole "treating the symptoms and not the cause of the problem" deal, where treating the symptoms just results in more of it popping up.

Snip

I really don't think you have to have writing in place for you to end up sympathetic towards a character. Like.. Other people look at this and probably don't see this as a sympathetic character in the least and probably were glad with what happens to him. Plus I don't really see him as disturbed.. He's angry about the constant crap Duskwights like him have to endure so he does some morally questionable stuff to right some wrongs, it's no different than..

Hilda and her 20 minute rebellion honestly

the only difference is plot aligns us with the latter and not the former.

The question is, what do we learn from it? The Lancer's guild is business as usual and another angry Duskwight is dead, I really doubt those events changed anything. Plus.. I feel you're trying to justify what could have already had, the WoL doesn't have to be some innocent bystander to injustice and that's what the OP seemed to motioning towards. Like.. Way to many questlines we see this kinda stuff, we just kind of passively sit by and let bad stuff happen for whatever reason almost arbitrarily,

Eeeh.. I don't know, we..

Kinda helped change Ishgard pretty massively, like sure they say "Our work here is just starting" but we literally just tossed away 1000 years of Dogma in a week, even if it's just the start, that's an immense leap considering the whole 1000 years of culture.

. We're a trouble maker and we disturb PLENTY of status quos, just never ones dealing with specific Eorzean issues (Like Gridania's racism). Like way I look at is it, what's going to solve this stuff from happening? Hitting the dog more til it stops being aggressive or taking it away from its owner and making sure it receives justice? Both will solve the issue of "The dog is attacking people", but only one is really right, because unlike the owner, the dog has a solid reason for its actions, the owner is just a jerk.

Snip

Like.. I feel that's seriously some bad writing though. Like, the writers of the plot line are trying to make you go "God, sure it sucks with the constant betrayal and racism, but do you have to be a jerk to me about it?". Like.. I mean, I can't really blame him, he's seen the lancers as a part of the institution of issues in Gridania (And I don't really think he's wrong) and you're a part of the Lancer's guild. Like.. The story could be written to much better, with us extending out hand and trying to actively empathize with folks facing Foulques' issues.

You are a Wildwood beginner archer from somewhere, not a Wildwood professional archer from Gridania.
It is no about the race, it is about the city culture (live with nature, don't waste anything, don't take more from the forest than you need)

A lot of this stuff is about race though (Wildwood Elezen and Duskwights live in like.. Two places and that's Gridania and Ishgard).. Like, we know Gridania has an issue with racism through stuff concerning Duskwights and Moon Keepers. I don't think this is straight up xenophobia as so much as it's about racism, just this is a game with a blank slate protagonist with only the bare minimum done to reference your race in insignificant ways.

[silentwindfr]

it's amusing, i don't belittle you when i say this, i did start as gridanian with the start of the V1, the fears of the stranger in the V1 was far worse. but the reason was shown better, the spirit of the forest are kinda godlike, gridanian are simply living there because they follow the will of the spirit. 1 spirit angry can simply wipe the whole town if he want. with time this fears of this have change into fear of the stranger since they often don't follow the rule of the forest and can anger the spirit to the point of no return.

other point, racism is not only seen into Gridania, you can see it into ul'dah too, the ala migghan are treated like pest most of the time. racism is one of the the heavy subject with the corruption that you can been seen into the different city. well less in limsa lominsa since they only care from them own freedom then *shrugs*

when you know the story of gridania (and do the other quest of the city and class from it) you can understand that Foulques was a broken person, but it was a situation that was coming from before the present time. if you do the archer quest line you encounter a elezen quite arrogant saying that miqote can't learn them way to hunt, but as you progress you see him change and a lot of quest around gridania are pointing this, the city is changing, slowly welcoming people, even trying to correct some old believing.... like the banishing of the people marked by the spirit as filthy. (was a huge story in the V1 this :x quite sad)

do everything is fair and nice? no, do foulques don't deserve a better ending? no he did get what he did deserve. he can have all the good reason of the world, it don't justify him act. that something that need to be understand, what did happend to him was sad, tragic, but him way to face it was wrong, in sooo many way... he didn't try to see if the new lancer guild was like the old one, he was desillusioned to be in him right and that him way was good. putting people in danger, harming people. because you was insulted and betrayed, it don't give you all the right to act worst than the people that did you do wrong.

Foulques was wrong, not in him reason, but in him way to do thing.

[Eul]

Because racist much (like Archer quest lol).

[myahele]

Yeah, with the exception of the DoL/DoH all class/job quest you're discriminated against in Gridania.

Still, while the whole "courage" deal that Ywain kept talking about was rather bland, the ending more than made up for it. I wonder if his friend that betrayed him was Laurentius, seems like his MO

[Ayuhra]

I leveled DRG on an alt and have been slowly going through LNC on my main here.

Aaaand I see where the OP is coming from. Nidhogg and his like are all "wronged" characters also that lash out irrationally but the game does a good job showing us that their story is tragic, even if their response is still wrong. The backstory for Foulques is sad but it is not framed in a way that paints him as tragic. The game paints him as bad. And if you pay attention it can be uncomfortable because unlike other class villains Foulques of the Mists ostensibly likes you. He felt bad for stealing from the Guild but let's remember he wasn't the only one picking over the coffers. He was just the only one who felt guilty enough to come forward about it.Other Lancers SAID they'd come forward too but when the time came they all pointed at the Duskwight and drove him out. I can see why that would be upsetting. And the Lancer's Guild never seems to answer for this. Ywain is apparently aware of the whole thing and does nothing. The Wood Wailers have similar problems with racism in their ranks but the Archery quests at least deal with this. It's a prominent aspect of that story. In the Lancers quests it mostly just felt like "Foulques = bad because story says so".

MOSTLY, though, MOSTLY I can tell you Foulques was handled poorly by his own plot because I play a Duskwight. I had this weird feeling that was the wrong thing to be every time I did a Lancer quest. They're just waiting for something to happen, then they are going to throw rocks at me...

[Belhi]

Just honestly quoting an honest reaction. Depending on the time of day, the cliff really isn't that apparent, but whether you noticed it or not beforehand it is a pretty lame plot device.

But being tragic does not automatically make a story good, either.

I understand. I was just pointing out that the cliff was there. Its not like it came from no where.

Also I was arguing that Tragic doesn't mean bad. I never meant to imply that tragic always means good. Quite the opposite. Tragic tales can be awful. Tragedy isn't good for just Tragedy's sake.

I leveled DRG on an alt and have been slowly going through LNC on my main here.

Aaaand I see where the OP is coming from. Nidhogg and his like are all "wronged" characters also that lash out irrationally but the game does a good job showing us that their story is tragic, even if their response is still wrong. The backstory for Foulques is sad but it is not framed in a way that paints him as tragic. The game paints him as bad. And if you pay attention it can be uncomfortable because unlike other class villains Foulques of the Mists ostensibly likes you. He felt bad for stealing from the Guild but let's remember he wasn't the only one picking over the coffers. He was just the only one who felt guilty enough to come forward about it.Other Lancers SAID they'd come forward too but when the time came they all pointed at the Duskwight and drove him out. I can see why that would be upsetting. And the Lancer's Guild never seems to answer for this. Ywain is apparently aware of the whole thing and does nothing. The Wood Wailers have similar problems with racism in their ranks but the Archery quests at least deal with this. It's a prominent aspect of that story. In the Lancers quests it mostly just felt like "Foulques = bad because story says so".

MOSTLY, though, MOSTLY I can tell you Foulques was handled poorly by his own plot because I play a Duskwight. I had this weird feeling that was the wrong thing to be every time I did a Lancer quest. They're just waiting for something to happen, then they are going to throw rocks at me...

Foulques actions are what made him bad. One thing you need to remember is the events that happened to Foulques happened some time ago. We have no idea how things have changed in the Guild since then. We do know that Ywain hasn't been Guild Leader for a very long time. He is a retired Wood Wailer. Foulques spent years in jail and time since then training. Things may have already changed since his time. They had in Gridania in general who in the past even saw any outsiders negatively. Certainly Ywain and the Lancers we deal with don't show any inherent racism during the quests.

There are things like this through the job quests. What stands out to me playing a Wildwood Archer, and having the other Wildwood Archer say you could never understand the ways of his people. YOU ARE HIS PEOPLE. Hell, I bet you could practically CLONE him using character creator, and he would whine about how you're different.

Not necessarily. The WoL isn't native to the city states. Wether they come from small villages outside the jurisdiction of the City states or from outside of Eorzea is left up to the players. After all Ishgard are Wildwood Elezen too but they wouldn't be called the same people. Likewise Keepers of the Moon from Shalayan will be different from Keepers native to the lands near the twelveswood.

[Ayuhra]

Foulques actions are what made him bad. One thing you need to remember is the events that happened to Foulques happened some time ago. We have no idea how things have changed in the Guild since then. We do know that Ywain hasn't been Guild Leader for a very long time. He is a retired Wood Wailer. Foulques spent years in jail and time since then training. Things may have already changed since his time. They had in Gridania in general who in the past even saw any outsiders negatively. Certainly Ywain and the Lancers we deal with don't show any inherent racism during the quests.

Foulques's actions made him bad but they made him interesting. That is really the cardinal sin committed by the Lancer's Guild chain. Foulques by far has the most personality and backstory and we learn to feel for the guy but when we turn back to the Lancers they give us....nothing, man. If Ywain had reached out to Foulques and tried to give him some guidance that could have been interesting. If Ywain were the one who explained Foulques's troubled past to you and said Foulques had become so deranged that he would never find the path then THAT could also have been interesting. Instead we hear about the grief from Foulques himself (in the English version anyway) which adds to him being the only personality in the chain. The problem is those blocks of wood in the Lancer's Guild are the ones we're supposed to side with and it's hard to tell how they feel about anything. (Although Ywain did almost get me mauled to death by a giant pig. That happened.) You're left with an unsatisfying story, one where the most identifiable, sympathetic and interesting character (who is also mostly decent towards you) ends up dying by your hands so you can help the blandie mcblands in their quest to...do...nothing. I'm not sure the Lancers even had an agenda other than "Don't be Foulques". And since they DON'T have their own thing going that is at all visible it's easy to see why this chain bothers some people. It just feels like there should be more to this story.

I can't bring myself to feel very sorry for someone that tried to feed me to a pack of wolves. I never did a damn thing to this dude. Hell, I never met him before! I don't care what he went through, that's just not cool at all. >.<

Foulques fights alongside you for the beginning of that fight and bombs off to see how you handle the end. Afterwards he points out that in killing the pack you've brought some peace to the Lifemend Stump, a place considered sacred by Gridanians. I'm not saying that luring you into a pack of wolves ISN'T pretty douchey but this is another example of Foulques being more interesting and thought provoking than our apparent heroes.

[Naunet]

Foulques actions are what made him bad. One thing you need to remember is the events that happened to Foulques happened some time ago. We have no idea how things have changed in the Guild since then. We do know that Ywain hasn't been Guild Leader for a very long time. He is a retired Wood Wailer. Foulques spent years in jail and time since then training. Things may have already changed since his time. They had in Gridania in general who in the past even saw any outsiders negatively. Certainly Ywain and the Lancers we deal with don't show any inherent racism during the quests.

The Lancer NPCs definitely display racism, though. At least I'm not sure how else we're supposed to take the little NPC idle scene going on outside the guild.

I'm not convinced things have changed considerably since Foulques was jailed. Ywain may not have been directly involved, but he's certainly dismissive of Foulques at every opportunity. The whole thing could have been resolved if he or the WoL or someone had maybe sat down and talked to Foulques instead of trying to shut the guy down.

Which would be fine. I'm not against sad stories in the game. But what made me uncomfortable is that the way it was written, I got the impression the writers don't actually want us to sympathize with Foulques at all. They want us to nod along and agree with Ywain all, "Yeah he's definitely a nut and a jerk! Silly Duskwights. Oh well, moving on!"

really good stuff

Yes, all of this! Very well put. I like how you think.

[MatthiasS]

There are things like this through the job quests. What stands out to me playing a Wildwood Archer, and having the other Wildwood Archer say you could never understand the ways of his people. YOU ARE HIS PEOPLE. Hell, I bet you could practically CLONE him using character creator, and he would whine about how you're different.

[Felis]

There are things like this through the job quests. What stands out to me playing a Wildwood Archer, and having the other Wildwood Archer say you could never understand the ways of his people. YOU ARE HIS PEOPLE. Hell, I bet you could practically CLONE him using character creator, and he would whine about how you're different.

You are a Wildwood beginner archer from somewhere, not a Wildwood professional archer from Gridania.
It is no about the race, it is about the city culture (live with nature, don't waste anything, don't take more from the forest than you need)