Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

[MeiUshu]

@Sir Darts,

Contrary to you, I speak of experience for having seen, peopel using parsers saying it open and initiating a vote to kick a dps outo f the group for ..poor perfomance, so I do speak with knowlegde, good knowledge, having seen it more then not.If someone dies in Titan, maybe because cant avoid titan's attack, nothing to do with parser, if a dps dies, it can be also becausese of the healer's fault, here going towards my point e.g. failure of the group is NOT on the shoulder of one only etc etc etc....still remain parser is for mature people, or with a mature intelligence..and not for children that will find it amusing to throw someone out they dont like (this too is a true story)

But, I am not difficult you know, each can live as they want .....and play as they want...this conversation, in the end brings nowhere, we do not hold the power to decide, SE holds it, I dont personalyl care either ways, I can only try my best which to some may nto be enough. you might want to come down from your mighty horse though and stop being hypocrital....in this communiyt many are immature snooty selfish people that all it matters is themselves...and never or rarely the good of a group

Mei

[sirDarts]

Anecdotal suggests a lack of experience with the subject. I guess you missed the sentence, and my post well prior in this thread, where I specifically cite a tank in a Fractal run using a parser to call out the party for their bad DPS. That is experience, and first-hand experience at that, nothing anecdotal about it. And in the end it wound up being the tank that was holding us up so it wasn't even the party's fault. Prime bloody example of what we are trying to avoid.

That's EXACTLY what's anecdotal about your evidence. Your lack of knowledge and information makes you overvalue ONE bad experience while being COMPLETELY unable to see any neutral/good experience you might have had with people who use parsers, because you DON'T KNOW who is and who isn't.

@Sir Darts,

Contrary to you, I speak of experience for having seen, peopel using parsers saying it open and initiating a vote to kick a dps outo f the group for ..poor perfomance, so I do speak with knowlegde, good knowledge, having seen it more then not.If someone dies in Titan, maybe because cant avoid titan's attack, nothing to do with parser, if a dps dies, it can be also becausese of the healer's fault, here going towards my point e.g. failure of the group is NOT on the shoulder of one only etc etc etc....still remain parser is for mature people, or with a mature intelligence..and not for children that will find it amusing to throw someone out they dont like (this too is a true story)

But, I am not difficult you know, each can live as they want .....and play as they want...this conversation, in the end brings nowhere, we do not hold the power to decide, SE holds it, I dont personalyl care either ways, I can only try my best which to some may nto be enough. you might want to come down from your mighty horse though and stop being hypocrital....in this communiyt many are immature snooty selfish people that all it matters is themselves...and never or rarely the good of a group

Mei

And I speak of experience for having seen people do nothing bad with parsers (me for example). So yeah... Our experience is worth the same, and it all boils down to one thing: People who want to be dicks will be dicks no matter the tools they have, and people who don't want to be dicks won't be dicks no matter the tools they have.

OK, I'm really starting to lose my patience with you...
I HAVE CLEARLY written that if someone dies to unavoidable damage, it IS the healer's fault.
And I HAVE CLEARLY written that if someone dies to avoidable damage, it IS their fault.
But it's still ONE PLAYER who is at fault, NOT the whole team.

AND ONCE AGAIN, if you are afraid of full party parsers, sure, but PERSONAL parsers would benefit EVERYONE!

why aren't people that are sick of "bad DPS", whatever that's supposed to mean, just playing in statics?
i think it has already been said a long time ago by yoshi, that higher tier content is supposed to be done in FCs and statics.
if something is to blame, it's the way this game forces DPS checks instead of complex and challenging encounters.
blame the game, not the player.

So basically you are saying, that Healers and Tanks ALWAYS have to play as good as they can (since their failure in anything above Brayflox means a wipe), yet DPS can play with one hand up their... *ehm*... because DPS checks are only in harder content which should be done with a premade group?

And people wonder why we say that DPS in this game are babied...

[Black_Rose]

So basically you are saying, that Healers and Tanks ALWAYS have to play as good as they can (since their failure in anything above Brayflox means a wipe), yet DPS can play with one hand up their... *ehm*... because DPS checks are only in harder content which should be done with a premade group?

And people wonder why we say that DPS in this game are babied...

no idea what has offended you with my post, but it's probably just your way to misinterpret what i was actually pointing out.
nowhere have i said Tanks and healers have to play as good as they can while DPS have to be the lazy bunch.
what i'm saying is, that it would be healthier for a game to have boss encounters that actually allow a group to work out tactics to beat it other than just racing down each phase as fast as possible.

i mean, it worked in other games i played for years, why does this one need to enforce a dps check then?
wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

[sirDarts]

no idea what has offended you with my post, but it's probably just your way to misinterpret what i was actually pointing out.
nowhere have i said Tanks and healers have to play as good as they can while DPS have to be the lazy bunch.
what i'm saying is, that it would be healthier for a game to have boss encounters that actually allow a group to work out tactics to beat it other than just racing down each phase as fast as possible.

i mean, it worked in other games i played for years, why does this one need to enforce a dps check then?
wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

Also some bosses are tactical and don't really require to burn it ASAP, it is better if you kill them fast, but that's it. But even in those the tanks and the healers have to do their best.
Now we finally have more stuff that actually requires DPS to PLAY THEIR ROLE and do damage, and people are crying about DPS checks. And of course we are crying about lazy DPS...

[Teryaani]

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

<devil's advocate mode> Depending on the content, lazy healers and tanks can get carried too. Also the DPS can easily cause wipes by tapping out the healer's resources either by taking too much avoidable damage or taking so long to kill the boss that simple attrition does the group in. </devil's advocate mode>

I like the idea of the personal parser. I definitely want to know how well I'm doing.

[Aomine1992]

Those dps checks do suck but honestly I was happy to have more of a role in the game in 3.0 then just 1 2 3 boss dead, now dps have to be actively involved and consistently improving look at a1 and a4 I love em...someone said it already but I had something like a teacher for my 3.0 rotations especially jumping from healer to dps lol but it's all about helping those who want to improve and leaving those who don't behind harsh but you can't force anyone to improve.

[ShaneDawn]

But healers and tanks DO have to play as good as they can, otherwise the team wipes.
DPS can be lazy because DPS being lazy does not cause wipes.

Also some bosses are tactical and don't really require to burn it ASAP, it is better if you kill them fast, but that's it. But even in those the tanks and the healers have to do their best.
Now we finally have more stuff that actually requires DPS to PLAY THEIR ROLE and do damage, and people are crying about DPS checks. And of course we are crying about lazy DPS...

You're making it sound like a dungeon run is really stressful for healers/tanks. Last I checked, everything outside the hardest content was a faceroll for all classes. If you're implying that dps can be lazy on any actual difficult content, oh how wrong you are.

I do think we should have a proper personal parser so everyone can step up their game. What I don't believe in is all the healers/tanks implying that a no-brainer dungeon run requires much effort. Playing good has nothing to do with it, when all classes can play considerably bad on 90% of the content and still clear it. Arguably the average dungeon DPS is the weakest link on average, but should we really waste our breath over who has it the easiest on easy content?

[sirDarts]

<devil's advocate mode> Depending on the content, lazy healers and tanks can get carried too. Also the DPS can easily cause wipes by tapping out the healer's resources either by taking too much avoidable damage or taking so long to kill the boss that simple attrition does the group in. </devil's advocate mode>

I like the idea of the personal parser. I definitely want to know how well I'm doing.

Yes, of course there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.
In most of the content where Healers and Tanks can slack, so can DPS.

As for taking avoidable damage: That is a problem for anyone, no just DPS, anyone who takes avoidable damage can cause a wipe.

You're making it sound like a dungeon run is really stressful for healers/tanks. Last I checked, everything outside the hardest content was a faceroll for all classes. If you're implying that dps can be lazy on any actual difficult content, oh how wrong you are.

I do think we should have a proper personal parser so everyone can step up their game. What I don't believe in is all the healers/tanks implying that a no-brainer dungeon run requires much effort. Playing good has nothing to do with it, when all classes can play considerably bad on 90% of the content and still clear it. Arguably the average dungeon DPS is the weakest link on average, but should we really waste our breath over who has it the easiest on easy content?

Stressful? Not really, unless you are on the very edge of ilvl required for the content. But if you slack, and don't pull your weight, you will likely cause a wipe as both tank as healer. As DPS? Not really.


But yeah agree with both of you, a personal parser would be a great addition.

[LunaHoshino]

wouldn't you say that long fights that really require brain and patience are better than short fights that just focus on dodging and putting out high dmg numbers?
have you never played a mmo that had lasting boss fights?
why does it always have to be, kill boss within time or die? what's the reason behind this decission?

Longer fights lead to raid fatigue, which increases the chances of people messing up. And if you mess up in the final phase of a 20+ minute fight, that's at least another 15 minutes just to get back to the point in the fight where you messed up so you can try again.

A lot of players aren't going to find something like that fun.

[Black_Rose]

Longer fights lead to raid fatigue, which increases the chances of people messing up. And if you mess up in the final phase of a 20+ minute fight, that's at least another 15 minutes just to get back to the point in the fight where you messed up so you can try again.

A lot of players aren't going to find something like that fun.

well, it's pretty much the same as now then.just that now, players, especially DPS are forced to remember certain combinations of skills to put out the right amount of DPS, totoally ignoring each individuals playstyle.
you simply can't force a certain playstyle on someone, and that's the whole reason why parsers won't change much about that.
i don't know, i grew up with MMOs sending you into dungeons that took 1-3 hrs with a boss at the end, and it seemed more fun.i don't udnerstand why these days developers tend to give out such short-living content, people have been workign back then just as much as they do now, so the excuse that they don't have the time because of RL is a bad example.content that takes a longer time to complete was usually completed once or twice a week, but now i can go and finish my alexander loot in a single day.

i might be a bit old fashioned, but to me it just seems that it's not healthy for a game to try and create content that feels like a race to the finish line.
especially not if there were already fights like ifrit/garuda/titan etc that didn't punish you for being slow, but simply got harder after a certain point, making its players trying to complete it faster before the danger of a wipe grew too big.