Job Personalization: Can I Have It?

[Izsha]

Can we just not. It has never worked in another mmo that required fine tuned teamwork. It works in crap like diablo because it's not really a team game. You can play how you want because it doesn't affect anyone else.

The balance is always crap. The more different the options are the exponentially harder it becomes to balance. No one wants to be benched because they aren't the current top patch job.

Find me one game requiring fine tuned coordinated group gameplay that featured a lot of classes (like 10+), with a large number of viable trees that didn't get boiled down to the cookie cutter and maybe a situational varient. Bonus points if it's not a class per character system.

it has NEVER worked. This customization junk is pie on the sky dreams. It doesn't work. It's been tried over and over year after year. And it flops every time. The reasons are well documented at this point.

But sure, let's ignore all that and flush another good game down the snowflake drain.

[Bishop81]

Can we just not. It has never worked in another mmo that required fine tuned teamwork. It works in crap like diablo because it's not really a team game. You can play how you want because it doesn't affect anyone else.

The balance is always crap. The more different the options are the exponentially harder it becomes to balance. No one wants to be benched because they aren't the current top patch job.

Find me one game requiring fine tuned coordinated group gameplay that featured a lot of classes (like 10+), with a large number of viable trees that didn't get boiled down to the cookie cutter and maybe a situational varient. Bonus points if it's not a class per character system.

it has NEVER worked. This customization junk is pie on the sky dreams. It doesn't work. It's been tried over and over year after year. And it flops every time. The reasons are well documented at this point.

But sure, let's ignore all that and flush another good game down the snowflake drain.

Again, allow customization of Classes and don't allow them in raids.

"Fine tuned teamwork" is not the whole game you know. I don't see why the whole game has to be designed around the needs of raiders.

[DreadRabbit]

Again, allow customization of Classes and don't allow them in raids.

"Fine tuned teamwork" is not the whole game you know.

...it's a party-based MMO. Sorry, but yes, "fine tuned teamwork" is supposed to be the whole game. Or at least part of the combat aspect of the game.

Also we already have this in being able to play any job at any time. If they're so similar as people keep saying then why do you insist on differentiating the class you already play? The only class/jobs that don't have much choice in variation are the bards and machinists. Everyone else gets variations on basic play points simply by switching a weapon. It encourages people to try new roles. Specs seem more like an excuse to just continue playing one class and one class only. Which yeah, people will do anyway, but you made that choice.

[Bishop81]

...it's a party-based MMO. Sorry, but yes, "fine tuned teamwork" is supposed to be the whole game. Or at least part of the combat aspect of the game.

Also we already have this in being able to play any job at any time. If they're so similar as people keep saying then why do you insist on differentiating the class you already play? The only class/jobs that don't have much choice in variation are the bards and machinists. Everyone else gets variations on basic play points simply by switching a weapon. It encourages people to try new roles. Specs seem more like an excuse to just continue playing one class and one class only. Which yeah, people will do anyway, but you made that choice.

Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

[zcrash970]

Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

No, it isn't. However, mmos are usually balanced with accordance to the hardest current content i.e. raids. Everything else is practically built around that.

[DreadRabbit]

Bullcrap.

WoW style raids - where the whole group is punished for the failings of a few leading to exclusionary and toxic behavior - aren't the only type of group content possible.

The exact same thing is happening in DF by people not wanting to help the team by playing their role properly. To the point where even MSQ dungeons can't be cleared because of "I'll play how I want to play". Jerks exist at all levels, not just raids.


What does adding a spec to a class you already play really change in terms of customization other than control of numbers? The specs in WoW and other games really don't change how a class plays at a basic level. "I want an ice BLM or a thunder BLM" (for example). Okay...the ice spells would probably still induce slow and heavy and given the trend thunder spells would still be dots. So if you specialized in say thunder, you'd be specializing in dots. Oh wait, SMN already specializes in dots, so that spec is more "samey" to another job than BLM as it is now.

That's more what I'm getting at. What radical spec choices would you implement for classes that would keep their core gameplay but would actually be worth the time to insert the change?

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^This post x100000%

[Bishop81]

The exact same thing is happening in DF by people not wanting to help the team by playing their role properly. To the point where even MSQ dungeons can't be cleared because of "I'll play how I want to play". Jerks exist at all levels, not just raids.

Not quite my point ...

My point instead was, group content where everyone has to be an obedient little sheep and do it a specific way or everyone will suffer, isn't the only type of group content.

What does adding a spec to a class you already play really change in terms of customization other than control of numbers? The specs in WoW and other games really don't change how a class plays at a basic level. "I want an ice BLM or a thunder BLM" (for example). Okay...the ice spells would probably still induce slow and heavy and given the trend thunder spells would still be dots. So if you specialized in say thunder, you'd be specializing in dots. Oh wait, SMN already specializes in dots, so that spec is more "samey" to another job than BLM as it is now.

That's more what I'm getting at. What radical spec choices would you implement for classes that would keep their core gameplay but would actually be worth the time to insert the change?

It's not about adding "specs", it's about letting you pick and choose what abilities you want.

For example, if you don't like a mechanic say ... Enochian ... perhaps you can use some other alternative mechanic instead and reach roughly the same result. Perhaps said alternative mechanic has lower damage but has a crowd control component so the mob dies before you do all the same.

Such alternative mechanics will never exist so long as the game is designed around raiding. All mechanics will have to be tightly balanced and SE doesn't have time to balance so many things.

If tight balance isn't an issue ... the sky is the limit really.

They can implement cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed and resulting in a sea of tears from raiders.

All the banality of the game is due to need to keep things ultra-balanced (thus boring).

Which brings me to my earlier post,

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3217176

[DreadRabbit]

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Doesn't matter if that first bit wasn't your point. It's the exact same mentality just on the other side of the coin. "You will all have to change your play style and adapt to me just because I don't want to play my role the way it was designed." How is that any different from expecting people to play the way your raid group wants you to? You become the person trying to herd sheep with that mentality. The only way to truly avoid that drama is to do group content with friends only. Speaking of...

Raiding's not for everybody. I know I don't raid because I don't like how strict it is. But MMOs, like it or not, need raiders to drive game development. They can't sustain a game by themselves, but they're the ones who complete content quickly and challenge the devs to make quality content faster. Games without raiding stagnate due to slow, if any, updates. Games that focus too much on raiding exclude too many people.

As for the actions thing, what good does adding another crowd control ability to a BLM toolkit where every other spell/attribute is already an AoE or assists in AoE? That's no different than adding a redundant spec. Every single skill that gets added needs to have a purpose and shouldn't be there just because someone wants choice. And we already have this with cross class skills. You can literally take off our soul stone and cross class just about any skill from any of the other classes to use. Play other classes and look at what skills can cross with yours to give a unique style. People are already doing it with their own groups and are having a good time.

"Implementing that cool new ability for Class A without worrying if that would make said class OPed" is called balancing. You're literally using what you claim to be the cause of this game being boring as your argument for why more skills could be added. And again, you're not suggesting anything new. We've got new skills, and people are chosing whether or not they wish to use them. Raiders will, obviously. But plenty of people are rebelling and aren't. That's their personal choice. Party with people that agree with those choices because there's plenty there.

[Izsha]

Again, allow customization of Classes and don't allow them in raids.

"Fine tuned teamwork" is not the whole game you know. I don't see why the whole game has to be designed around the needs of raiders.

So you can have your healing dragoon spec so you can solo you daily hints for 10 centurion seals? Duty finder IS the game. There is no real content in the open world that has any real value. The only things that can even kill a player outside of DF are dragonskin maps, S ranks, and the 3 super fate chains, Odin and behemoth. The entirety of open world aside from those are easily done with any job and a choco.

You want to remake the entire game so you can do fates as you tank spec dragoon or your dps drk? No thanks.

This is a theme park mmo. The actual meat of the game is in duty finder and all this dream of a balanced multi class multi spec game wont work there. When a dark joins my group for expert roulette they need to be tanking, not healing because that's how they want to play. If you want to heal today, go hop on a healer. If you want to melee, range, or caster spec today, hop on those classes. The game has specs. They are called jobs and you can change on a whim any day you like.

Edit:
I also see no one could muster up a single example of a teamwork oriented game that successfully pulled this off ever in the history of mmos. Instead people deflect and try to claim this theme park mmo isnt atually a team coordination jump rope game. Dont be delusional. That's ALL this game is (combat wise anyway) Many games have tried, all have failed, but THIS time will be different! No. It wont. Stop kidding yourself.

[justinjarjar]

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The funny thing is soloing hunts with DRG is easy.