The 4th Tank.

[VargasVermillion]

Tank types

The problem stems from SEs limited options for utility though, unless they add more mechanics involving cc, interrupts or whatever else you can think of they'll just recycle the same utilities making all the tanks being relatively the same with the only difference being play style. Basically it would be a pain to balance due to how the mechanics in the game work.

New gameplay is the main goal of course but if the new tanks have no debuffs or anything like that why pick them over the standard WAR/PLD set up. DRK is valued for better aoe dps than PLD atm but that's it.

[Cooperal]

The problem stems from SEs limited options for utility though, unless they add more mechanics involving cc, interrupts or whatever else you can think of they'll just recycle the same utilities making all the tanks being relatively the same with the only difference being play style. Basically it would be a pain to balance due to how the mechanics in the game work.

New gameplay is the main goal of course but if the new tanks have no debuffs or anything like that why pick them over the standard WAR/PLD set up. DRK is valued for better aoe dps than PLD atm but that's it.

My fear exactly. I don't think I could bear the next tank being another heavy armoured job. And other people popping ideas here don't seem to realise that wearing as much damage reduction as possible isn't the only type of tank that can exist.

I put a Dancer idea earlier in the thread (probably page 6ish?) and it just got looked right over because I posted in the middle of some babies having a bickering match. Would have liked to have seen some speculation how that could have been made to work better.

At the fan-fest in London prior to HW, they said that they had a lot of trouble choosing between the DRK and SAM, and the decision for DRK came down to the last hair. So I fear SAM will be the next tank option. I really hope they get changed to DPS though because I seriously worry for the diversity of gameplay going forward. All tanks right now, melee with bulky armour. All healers, magic users who all do slightly different things from the same standing point. I see it as a massive problem that nearly all of the games diversity is crammed into 1 of the 3 roles which is DPS.

It can be fixed with one or two mid-3.x jobs getting added, but if it's not something they address they better hope that their story content is even stronger than what they've delivered already, otherwise there's little point in staying.

[Khalithar]

Snip

Actually, I could definitely see Samurai wearing leather and using DEX as a main stat rather than Str and heavy armor. The reason for that being, Mnk and Nin share armor types, if they were to put Samurai on there they could use the pan-asian style armor of the 170 law tome gear we have for all three jobs as it fits in with all three. Also samurai armor did traditionally use leather or iron for a lot of it's construction, so they could very easily stick Samurai on to the leather gear with a stance that increases it's defensive value gain. I do however see some concerns over it's potential utility as most of that is covered.

My immediate thoughts for utility that the other tanks don't have that you see in other MMO's:

A long range pull that drags enemies to them.
Ability to inflict paralyze.
Raid wide damage reduction that is not limited by distance.
Magic damage redirection.
A non-stun cast interrupt. Think an enemy casts a spell and you just hit a button that doesn't stun them, but interrupts the cast.
A flat reduction in all enemy damage.
A flat increase to all damage an enemy takes.
A proper taunt/provoke that others MMO's have. As in one that puts you on top of the threat list and forces the target to attack/target only you for a few seconds.
An AOE stun.
An AOE taunt.

There is plenty of tank utility left that the devs have woefully underutilized. Mind you, those are all abilities I've used on other tanks in other games, in many cases those tanks have several of those, if the content is balanced properly it doesn't make them better than the other tanks either as their specific mechanics and other cooldowns differ.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

While I'm all for non-plate wearing tanks, historically, Samurai wore heavy armor (plate).

However, I love thematic job designs.

We have middle ages European jobs in Knights (Paladin which is called Knight in the JP version, Dragoon which is also a knight, and Dark Knight), Wizards (BLM) and priests (WHM) and archers (BRD).

We can have a far eastern model too, let's have Samurai (tank), Ninja , Monk and add some healer that fits the far east theme. Shintou priest?

Kinda too bad that jobs in this game pick one weapon. A samurai class that could utilize katana and bows (Samurai were excellent archers with the Yumi bow) would be so interesting to play. In FFXI SAM used to skill chain with itself utilizing Katana and Archery weaponskills and was one of the two reasons they nerfed pointblank archery (The other reason was rangers dual wielding axes and wailing at the targets during the ranged attack recast lol).

Beastmaster or Puppermaster tanking with their pets would be interesting but I fear it would be as clunky as Titan-egi tanking even if they had better aggro. The most realistic way a pet class can tank is if they shared damage with their pets and had CDs where the pet absorbs the damage for them or they absorbed HP from the pet.

The main problem with the FF series is that they never had non-heavy armor sturdy classes outside of the monk. And since FFXIV doesn't want hybrids, MNK won't tank. Which is why I would suggest a Disciple of Magic tank.

RDM comes to mind, but they can make it anything really. A mage that amplifies its DEF and M.DEF through a trait or just has a much higher damage reduction multiplier on their tank stance. It tanks by applying debuffs, magical barriers (directly reduce damage or adds HP) while using magical attacks (Foe Requiem buffs them) for damage.

[Khalithar]

Snip

I love the thematic design as well, it's why I suggested putting Samurai on the same armor type as mnk and nin. That way they could all share that style of armor, you know depending on what they throw on it. But one thing I'd love to see which has stood out to me, is thus far SE has been very hesitant about giving any sort of Garlean style weapons or armor which is honestly what I want more than anything. I love their aesthetic, some garlean themed jobs would be awesome. How the story could support I have no idea, but I still want it!

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Samurai will probably fit when the land of the Au'Ra opens.

Also...

I think I want something unique. Warrior Priest type class, plate armor melee healer with a two handed mace.

[Cooperal]

Partial snip.
The main problem with the FF series is that they never had non-heavy armor sturdy classes outside of the monk.

You have to keep in mind that "sturdy" and "tank" do not have to be kept together by law. Evasion, decoys, crowd control (stuns, paralysis, binds, knockbacks) also all serve the tanks ultimate purpose. It's not to take hits but to make the enemy use their time as uselessly as possible.

The FFXI version of NIN was one such tank which really couldn't take hits head-on very well, but relied on its evasion as well as its shadow spam. I want Dancer to come back in that sort of way, only with something a bit more inventive than shadow-spam and a bit more movement-based. Elaborated back on page 6. Dual fans as a weapon would be nice.

[Phoenicia]

Snip.

Yeah, but you have to think in terms of FFXIV mechanics too. FFXIV does not have evasion as a stat, it can only be temporarily boosted and doesn't work when it matters.

FFXIV tanking meta is: Set period of low damage (fluff) into tank buster (1 hit or multiple). If we have an evasion tank that can dodge busters, we will only use that tank.

Blinds, Paralysis and binds don't work on bosses. And knockbacks only serve to piss off your tank and DPS.

FFXI is a fun example on its own though. In that game, BRD, RDM, BLU, DRK, SAM, and NIN all cheesed their way through tanking. For example, NIN wasn't even designed to tank. RDM tanked in a fun way with all its defensive spells and enfeebles that made some mobs just stand there doing nothing.

So unless SE changes the way the stats work mechanically. Or change the meta of how damage is dealt and received, we are limited on what SE can do with the jobs.

[Cooperal]

Yeah, but you have to think in terms of FFXIV mechanics too. FFXIV does not have evasion as a stat, it can only be temporarily boosted and doesn't work when it matters.

FFXIV tanking meta is: Set period of low damage (fluff) into tank buster (1 hit or multiple). If we have an evasion tank that can dodge busters, we will only use that tank.

Blinds, Paralysis and binds don't work on bosses. And knockbacks only serve to piss off your tank and DPS.

FFXI is a fun example on its own though. In that game, BRD, RDM, BLU, DRK, SAM, and NIN all cheesed their way through tanking. For example, NIN wasn't even designed to tank. RDM tanked in a fun way with all its defensive spells and enfeebles that made some mobs just stand there doing nothing.

So unless SE changes the way the stats work mechanically. Or change the meta of how damage is dealt and received, we are limited on what SE can do with the jobs.

I'm sure there must be a way. I neglected to mention much about self-buffs in my last post. Actions like the PLDs Shelltron and the DRKs Living Dead are each examples of abilities that counter-balance the fact that bosses can also come with their own resistances. They force something to happen (or not happen) regardless of what the opponent tries. Much like the FFXI ninja shadow.

Not to mention that annoying people hasn't stopped knockbacks from being included on the likes of CNJ and MCH. It's the sort of ability that people avoid using but would certainly have its purpose when saving a life takes priority over someones perfect DPS. A knockback wasn't something that I thought would suit a DNC (I purposely left it out when I went into detail pages back) but when I think about it, a tank is the one that would get the most out of it, so it seemed worth putting on the end when listing CC. If anything, a DNC-like way about a knockback would be best in resverse. Like a self-knockback combined with an enemy-bind to offer a breather.

In any case, you should go back to page 6, look at what I said, and think about ways you could hammer those points to make them work because I promise it wouldn't be far-fetched. Just try it rather than giving the "I don't need to I know better". The meta is bland and kind of needs saving. (Discalimer: No harsh tone intended, I just don't like spending an hour ironing out my posts)

[Duelle]

While I'm all for non-plate wearing tanks, historically, Samurai wore heavy armor (plate).

Lamellar isn't really the same as plate. For one it restricted the user less and depending on the material was arguably lighter.

Beastmaster or Puppermaster tanking with their pets would be interesting but I fear it would be as clunky as Titan-egi tanking even if they had better aggro.

The way I'd implement Beastmaster is having a proximity buff between master and pet that splits damage. The master would do the tanking, the pet would be a sort of back-up/second HP bar of sorts/extra DPS/source of defensive cooldowns. Kinda building on the concept behind Lineage II's Dark Avenger (tank that had a pet, though that pet was only there for extra DPS).

RDM tanked in a fun way with all its defensive spells and enfeebles that made some mobs just stand there doing nothing.

Not really. RDM tanking involved spamming enfeebles not for their effects, but for their enmity. A RDM could generate crazy amounts of enmity using the correct spells, enough that it could hit the aggro caps and be the tank. It was several years too late, but SE ended up nerfing enmity from enfeebles to kill off RDM tanking.