Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[GrizzlyTank]

You see it as a design flaw, others see it as an opportunity.

What does that even mean.
Opportunity for what? To unlock Geirskogul?

[Grimm08]

3. The Level 60 ability should be the HP-Drain ability. That would make a lot more sense given its what the actual NPC in the 60 quest spams on you ! And it would be very useful imo!

Uh....Life Surge?

[Grimm08]

F&C and WT were obviously designed to separate the Good from the Bad(based on forums).

This. The introduction of Wheeling Thrust at 58 added a need to pay attention to what you were doing. It may seem odd to have it done at a later point from when the other 4th ability is, but with them introduced at separate times, it allows for 1. The first one getting you used to having a 4th tier ability and 2. The second making it so that you have to actually pay attention to what is being done at that time. It may not add a ridiculous amount of complexity, but it means you have to actually Play your job.

[justinjarjar]

This. The introduction of Wheeling Thrust at 58 added a need to pay attention to what you were doing. It may seem odd to have it done at a later point from when the other 4th ability is, but with them introduced at separate times, it allows for 1. The first one getting you used to having a 4th tier ability and 2. The second making it so that you have to actually pay attention to what is being done at that time. It may not add a ridiculous amount of complexity, but it means you have to actually Play your job.

Tried this logic before people just ignore or point out something else. They are pointless to argue with. This is why it is at 58 thou since FF14 has been good about trying to teach you how to play before throwing too much at you. (Guildheists are useful for new players, gentle ramp to more complex abilities, traits, etc.) Seems to be a very odd lot at this time that think there is a problem with the skills/job.

[GrizzlyTank]

This. The introduction of Wheeling Thrust at 58 added a need to pay attention to what you were doing. It may seem odd to have it done at a later point from when the other 4th ability is, but with them introduced at separate times, it allows for 1. The first one getting you used to having a 4th tier ability and 2. The second making it so that you have to actually pay attention to what is being done at that time. It may not add a ridiculous amount of complexity, but it means you have to actually Play your job.

The people who complain here know how to play their job. The issue is that WT is a completely meaningless ability that is slapped in the players face under the guise of "progress". If F&C and WT had each been applied as the 4th combo to their respective chains there woudn't have been an issue since now you got actuall progress and drg would now have to swich position 4 times rather than the original 2.

No reason for this issue to be "Pros vs Plebs"..

[Grimm08]

The issue is that WT is a completely meaningless ability that is slapped in the players face under the guise of "progress".

The addition of a single ability every two levels is how each and every job handled them post-fifty. SE can't just change the formula for one job because it seems like "Lack of Progress" or "Needless". The ability is what it is, an additional way to do damage, while adding a hint of spontaneity to the class. It may be the "Same" as F&C, but it is its own ability, with its own position and animation. I just hope this dies down soon because the job isn't changing. We are the strongest DPS when played properly, right there with everyone else when played moderately, and terrible if played poorly. The recent buff even rewarded poor play for IMPROVING the amount of damage from a missed positional. We don't need a change, an adjustment, a nerf, or a buff.

On top of that, these abilities aren't meant for the player to be consistently playing at the level of 56, 58, or even 59. These abilities, as a whole, are designed for the player to play at max level. The implementation of them separately, as I stated, first gets them used to the concept of a 4th tier skill, then second adds a complexity creating the need to pay attention for maximum output. It is the same concept for Ninja. at level 30, you received your first Mudra, and all you could do was cast Fuma Shuriken, in 5 levels(the increment in which abilities were introduced at the time) a second was added, opening up new abilities and a higher complexity to the job. While the concept isn't exactly the same, the premise is still there. They intended Dragoon to have both F&C and WT, but could not add them at the same time for the simple fact that it didn't need to be so. You slowly acquire these abilities for the intent of implementing them at top level. You learn them, you watch for them, and you become a better player for it. Simplifying the job by taking away one, or causing a higher rate of confusion by implementing them at the same time is not what SE was looking for with this ability. It was designed as a smooth transition from 50 to 60, so that when you learned this new ability, and it lit up for the same time you realized "Oh! I can't JUST stand at the flank until Chaos Thrust, I have to move for this ability now as well."

The bottom line is that the job isn't changing, it doesn't need to change. Dragoon is an amazingly heavy hitting job with the need to pay attention and watch what you're doing now, rather than HT, 123, Phleb, 456, HT, 456, Phleb, 123, with jumps thrown in there.

[Fynlar]

F&C and WT were obviously designed to separate the Good from the Bad(based on forums). DRGs complaining about finally having some type of complexity to their job, its hilarious.

Everyone who's saying something like this is missing the point entirely, just saying. There would be no issue whatsoever if F&C and WT were awarded at the same level.

The point is that during the period you only have one of these abilities (56-57, assuming you do all the quests as soon as they are available), you have better performance than at 58-59 because there is less randomness involved in your 4th hit combos without any detrimental effect on potency. Unlocking WT at 58 does not improve the job at all and merely makes it more complicated for no reward other than being able to move on to your level 60 quest later.

[whiskeybravo]

Everyone who's saying something like this is missing the point entirely, just saying. There would be no issue whatsoever if F&C and WT were awarded at the same level.

Still going on about this? It doesn't matter if you unlocked both at 56 you'd still be dealing with the randomness that's apparently so detrimental to your ability to play the job correctly. If you can get "used to it" from 56-58 then what's stopping you from getting used to it from 58-60?

[Remus]

snip

We are strongest DPS in certain situation where the boss is pretty much a training dummy (Faust, A4 Boss, Most bosses in Fractal) If they are not like that we can still be top but its rare that ever happens. Even with Wheeling Thrust added I still don't pay attention. The fact that they changed the positional amount shows they knew it was foolish to have it that low because for the amount of times the boss turned around you would have a DPS loss and using it alone was a huge DPS loss because unless you use stun you doing a very low amount of damage. No one is saying change the job there is a difference between wanting a job changed compared to a skill...people are saying they want Wheeling thrust to be different and not a clone of Fang and Claw but for the rear.

So far any dragoon I have met wishes they could skip Wheeling Thrust because it doesn't do anything for them and its just there just be like "oh you wanted Fang and Claw? Well sorry take Wheeling Thrust even though you can't reach the rear right now" This is a case in AS1. When you reach 58 you expect a reward for reaching that level and gaining a skill which will benefit you but this skill doesn't do that it's just there and doesn't help me all that much because it turned my proc from 100% to 50/50 between the skills I may get a skill I can't effectively use in this situation. It's not about who can play their class or paying attention because im pretty sure everyone can do that because no has mentioned that is a issue but Wheeling Thrust being an clone of Fang and Claw and anyone who says it isn't is just lying to themselves.

Also sorry I want to have a skill which is useful and not a hindrance when I don't want it. People saying oh you just don't want complexity is a lie...im all for complexity on dragoon but I don't want complexity for the sake of complexity because now im just putting in tiny bit of extra effort for the same amount of damage why? It should be more complexity = more reward not complexity = nothing. If I could skip Wheeling Thrust and I can bet numerous others would because it does nothing for me and I already have Fang and Claw so I wont need Wheeling Thrust.

[Fynlar]

Still going on about this? It doesn't matter if you unlocked both at 56 you'd still be dealing with the randomness that's apparently so detrimental to your ability to play the job correctly. If you can get "used to it" from 56-58 then what's stopping you from getting used to it from 58-60?

Yeah, still going on about it, because people still aren't getting it and it's something that ought to be addressed.

The difference with having F&C and WT available right off the bat as opposed to getting one then the other later is that the former properly introduces a randomized mechanic, with rewards for getting it right. The latter punishes the player by arbitrarily adding randomness for no reason other than to complicate the job + wastes a quested ability slot for something we already had available to us.

In practice these may seem no different to you, but from a design perspective these two scenarios are very, very different from each other. It has resulted in the game's first quested ability that, had we been given the option, most people that aren't masochistic would *skip* obtaining because it hinders the job just by obtaining it. If F&C and WT were a package deal, nobody would be talking about wishing they could skip one or the other.