Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[whiskeybravo]

It doesn't offer ANY improvement, and in fact offers a nerf. Show me another ability that nerfs the job for no return, please.

I've already showed the math that it's still an improvement even if you purposely avoid their positional requirement. Since you're the one claiming it's a nerf, the burden of proof really lies with you. There are plenty of DRG parses out there to show it's pretty much the top DPS right now. So please, show us some proof that drg is nerfed upon obtaining Wheeling Thrust.

It requires more attention and reaction to be able to do the same amount of damage, so that's still a gimping. .

It's kinda funny that our reasoning of "complex mechanics are rewarding when executed correctly" isn't a valid defense of the mechanic, but your opinion that it's difficult and therefore nerfs the job is a valid argument against it. This is typical when people don't actually have any valid logic to their argument.

How did you miss this part: "The matter at hand is simply this: DRG is *hindered* going from having F&C only, to having F&C and WT. And that is some kind of messed up considering no other quested ability in the game works this way" ?

DRG isn't hindered in anyway, it's the player hindering him/herself by refusing to execute the ability as it was meant to be executed. There nothing stopping the player from hitting a positional except their own willingness to.

[Fynlar]

I've already showed the math that it's still an improvement even if you purposely avoid their positional requirement. Since you're the one claiming it's a nerf, the burden of proof really lies with you. There are plenty of DRG parses out there to show it's pretty much the top DPS right now. So please, show us some proof that drg is nerfed upon obtaining Wheeling Thrust.

An improvement over what, exactly?

I'm talking about having F&C and WT is a detriment from having just F&C, because it introduces a randomness and reaction factor that wasn't present with just F&C alone, which means more difficulty, which means fewer sweet spots hit overall, which means a DPS reduction.

It's kinda funny that our reasoning of "complex mechanics are rewarding when executed correctly" isn't a valid defense of the mechanic,

It isn't valid, because it isn't true. You are not "rewarded" in any way upon unlocking Wheeling Thrust because Wheeling Thrust has the exact same potencies as F&C and offers nothing to the job that it didn't already have with F&C.

If you want to pat yourself on the back for mastering an ability that does absolutely nothing for your overall DPS, go right ahead, but that's not a reward that's coming from the game.

DRG isn't hindered in anyway, it's the player hindering him/herself by refusing to execute the ability as it was meant to be executed. There nothing stopping the player from hitting a positional except their own willingness to.

rofl

I don't know what sort of Bizarro FFXIV you're living in, but in the one I'm playing, there are a few things that are true:

1) complexity of a class has an impact on how well people play it
2) sometimes sweet spots are going to be missed, no matter how good you think you are
3) the more positionals something has, especially if they are randomized, the more likely it is for people to screw it up here and there. (This is why despite MNK being lauded as king DPS for a while, many many bandwagon MNK players were not meeting this sort of standard)

Adding complexity to a job for no reward is gimping the job, full stop.

[whiskeybravo]

Again, you've not offered any proof, just hypothetical concepts. You have no argument except you are simply unhappy with the design.

An improvement over what, exactly?

The rotation without BotD, which was clearly illustrated

I'm talking about having F&C and WT is a detriment from having just F&C, because it introduces a randomness and reaction factor that wasn't present with just F&C alone, which means more difficulty, which means fewer sweet spots hit overall, which means a DPS reduction.

It's not a detriment, each attack has the same potencies for hitting or not hitting the positional. Randomness has nothing do with potency. Reaction factor has nothing to do with potency. What you are talking about is your own inability to adjust to these factors, it has nothing to do with the factors themselves as they are the same.

It isn't valid, because it isn't true. You are not "rewarded" in any way upon unlocking Wheeling Thrust because Wheeling Thrust has the exact same potencies as F&C and offers nothing to the job that it didn't already have with F&C.

That was not the point. We offer opinions and reasons but they aren't what you want to hear, but we are supposed to agree with your opinion without any proof? It doesn't work that way.

If you want to pat yourself on the back for mastering an ability that does absolutely nothing for your overall DPS, go right ahead, but that's not a reward that's coming from the game.

Hitting the positionals correctly absolutely does something for my DPS.

rofl

I don't know what sort of Bizarro FFXIV you're living in, but in the one I'm playing, there are a few things that are true:

1) complexity of a class has an impact on how well people play it
2) sometimes sweet spots are going to be missed, no matter how good you think you are
3) the more positionals something has, especially if they are randomized, the more likely it is for people to screw it up here and there. (This is why despite MNK being lauded as king DPS for a while, many many bandwagon MNK players were not meeting this sort of standard)

These are all erroneous points to the debate. If you can't prove that obtaining WT is actually a DPS loss then you really have no argument. The only way it becomes a loss is from the players ability, it does not and can not come from the class itself because these abilities are exactly the same. It may not be a gain, true, but the only way you lose is from failure to execute as it's meant to be executed. Player problem not a class problem.

Adding complexity to a job for no reward is gimping the job, full stop.

This one sentence right here just proves to me that you still have no idea what your talking about. Complexity = positional requirements and random procs, reward = bonus potency/higher dps for correct execution. How is this so difficult for you to grasp? It's not about just one lv58 ability, it's about lv54, lv56, lv58 and lv60 abilities that are tied together in one new mechanic. You are more than able to go without the new mechanic, but it will in fact be a dps loss if you do so. So to continue to argue that one ability is a loss because it's "not a gain" is disingenuous because you only taking one part of the system instead of seeing the whole thing in perspective. The whole mechanic is a dps gain whether you obey the positionals or not. So the only different factor is the random proc, but guess what, you can't hit the wrong one, which makes it nearly brain dead easy to just hit the button and continue on with your rotation.

[Aiselia]

Adding complexity to a job for no reward is gimping the job, full stop.

If people aren't hitting their positionals because of reasons under their control (so not counting mechanics forcing you to not hit them), then it is their fault, not the job's, full stop.

As you so kindly pointed out, despite Monk's potential power, a lot of people weren't reaching it because of positionals. That is the fault of those players. It is not the job gimping everybody.

[justinjarjar]

Hey guys it is designed with both skills and will not change anytime soon. I find the progression design in leveling to be good (get more complex with level then just throwing everything at you at once like op suggests). Both have advantages and disadvantages and are more of opinion then having FACTUAL best way for the skills to be introduced. At this point their is no argument since SE took the method of level progression and it ties in with DRG job quest story. It would be a huge waste of time for SE now and would do next to nothing at how DRG is meant to play at 60.

[Fynlar]

The rotation without BotD, which was clearly illustrated

Obviously. Nobody was claiming you shouldn't use BotD if you can't hit sweet spots.

We're talking about having both F&C and WT as opposed to having just F&C alone.

It's not a detriment, each attack has the same potencies for hitting or not hitting the positional. Randomness has nothing do with potency. Reaction factor has nothing to do with potency.

Yes, it does. The more difficult you make it to hit positionals, the less likely they will be hit.

Hitting the positionals correctly absolutely does something for my DPS.

Yeah, and it was much easier to do when you had F&C only because it didn't even require any thought or reaction over which proc you would get, because you only had one option.

Since acquiring WT I'm often not able to get into a sweet spot anymore in time with my GCD due to needing to react instead of being able to just move to the flank, which either forces me to delay my GCD or miss the sweet spot. Either way, DPS loss.

These are all erroneous points to the debate. If you can't prove that obtaining WT is actually a DPS loss then you really have no argument. The only way it becomes a loss is from the players ability, it does not and can not come from the class itself because these abilities are exactly the same. It may not be a gain, true, but the only way you lose is from failure to execute as it's meant to be executed. Player problem not a class problem.

And the introduction of WT makes it more difficult to execute, meaning *in practice* it will usually be a DPS loss. Whether it's a "player problem" or "class problem" is frankly irrelevant. The point is that this still stems from a design flaw that could have easily been corrected.

This one sentence right here just proves to me that you still have no idea what your talking about. Complexity = positional requirements and random procs, reward = bonus potency/higher dps for correct execution. How is this so difficult for you to grasp? It's not about just one lv58 ability, it's about lv54, lv56, lv58 and lv60 abilities that are tied together in one new mechanic. You are more than able to go without the new mechanic, but it will in fact be a dps loss if you do so. So to continue to argue that one ability is a loss because it's "not a gain" is disingenuous because you only taking one part of the system instead of seeing the whole thing in perspective. The whole mechanic is a dps gain whether you obey the positionals or not. So the only different factor is the random proc, but guess what, you can't hit the wrong one, which makes it nearly brain dead easy to just hit the button and continue on with your rotation.

Yes, it is about just one level 58 ability. You keep talking about the "system" but the ability adds nothing to the system that it didn't already have at 56.

You want to know what has a much better built-upon system? The vastly criticized and scrutinized Wanderer's Minuet. Both abilities that require Minuet's use (Empyreal Arrow, Iron Jaws) are actually both useful in different ways and both actually add to the job/ability without resorting to repetition that says "hey, we totally have no idea what to give this job anymore, so let's just make a copy of one of its attacks and make it sweetspotted from another side. Simples!"

Hey guys it is designed with both skills and will not change anytime soon.

Well, yeah. I consider it unlikely they will introduce a new skill in its place.

But what they should do is make adjustments so that both skills actually have a reason for existing (because right now, they don't), and that people aren't punished for doing their 58 quest as a result.

Honestly, it really should be telling on its own that it's the only quested ability to complicate a job for zero benefit (as a result, nerf)

[justinjarjar]

snip

Do you know what nerf means?
The design of class is at 60 not 56 or 58. In that way the idea of adding the second proc later is the give you time to get used to the fourth skill before the procs.

[GrizzlyTank]

Do you know what nerf means?
The design of class is at 60 not 56 or 58. In that way the idea of adding the second proc later is the give you time to get used to the fourth skill before the procs.

It is a nerf because it makes our level 56 skill worse by adding RNG that might decide if an attack is to deal 200 or 290.

[Leonus]

It is a nerf because it makes our level 56 skill worse by adding RNG that might decide if an attack is to deal 200 or 290.

Only if you can't hit positionals. Which mechanics sometimes dictate, but that's mostly on the player.

[justinjarjar]

It is a nerf because it makes our level 56 skill worse by adding RNG that might decide if an attack is to deal 200 or 290.

Only a nerf if it changes after the fact we got a buff in the positional already not sure what else you people want? It is some good ass design in ramping up difficulty with level. I also like the skill set at level 60 makes DRG unique and one of my favorite jobs.