Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[BadRNG]

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

Can you show me some parses of PLD/DRK hitting the same upper limits of WAR, even with slashing debuff? I've never seen any good ones. Closest thing was DRK pre-DA fix, but after that I'm not sure how they can achieve similar DPS as WAR as that was a pretty large DPS hit.

Your second point is just further proving the OP's original post. You're basically agreeing that WAR can be a good MT/OT with no penalty in every fight, it's really only PLD/DRK who you have to actually plan your entire raid comp around or consider the fight. WAR just fits no matter what, in either role.

I don't think that WAR needs a nerf, and being the top DPS tank isn't really an issue either, it's just that they give up nothing in order to have it. All of their strengths are general use and apply in every fight, and like the OP said, they don't have a real glaring weakness like the other tanks have. The smartest solution would be to make both DRK/PLD have that same viability, so that they can fit in either role. Right now that's just not the case. Telling PLD's or DRK's to just OT in magic/physical fights respectively is missing the point entirely, as WAR is even the better OT. They do have more damage. They do have more sustainability. They do bring better utility.

I think the only reason you don't see WAR/WAR combos at this point is simply because many groups are bringing DRG over MNK now, and therefore DRK's main reason to be there is it's ability to have a DK substitute. (well that an LB, I guess)

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

Balance should be done around the top meta because that is not only where balance issues are most glaringly obvious or relevant, it also tends to trickle down into player perception. People see these raid set ups and often emulate or believe they must be the best. This leads to general group discrimination.

Besides, what else would you base balance on? There's no other content in the game where it could actually matter, people can clear everything else no matter the composition.

[Phoenicia]

Bunch of things that are missing the point

Here is Lucrezia's Ravana speed kill, and here is their parse. Both tanks were going FULL DPS. DRK "beat" WAR by 40 DPS. Dummy parses mean poop. Real fights are what matter.

WAR "pays" for its DPS by losing all of its defenses while doing it.

WAR's "utility" is Storm Path. That. is. it. People are over exaggerating the f*** out of this buff. You can live without it. It is just Sacred Soil. A lot of the major important raid-wide AoE either 1) happens when the boss cannot be hit (Twintania ultimate after dives, T9 Megaflare, As1 Opressor Jumps) or 2) Can be healed through regardless. Also note that any good WAR will drop Storm Path out of its rotation to maintain higher DPS. Any "better" WAR will apply it for seconds before busters/raid DPS like how BRDs applied Rain of Death in 2.0 before the nerf.

PLD + DRK combos work JUST. AS. GOOD. Bring a NIN for the slashing debuff and the OT's TP. Bringing another job for a debuff is not new. It is the same as bringing a job for a buff (look BRD and MCN). PLD + WAR still needs monk's INT down if that's a concern. DRK + WAR will suffer more physical damage because no RoH and DRK is pure shite against physical damage.

If you think WAR "needs" equilibrium to sustain its TP outside of As2, you know jack about WAR and how it plays. Not to mention all fights have TP breaks in boss invulnerabilities or mechanic handling. There are very few exceptions (namely T8 and T11).

People cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot. PLD does not have to MT every fight. DRK does not and SHOULD NOT MT every fight. WAR does not need to be brought for every fight.

[Gameplayzero]

@Phoenicia

Both Paladin and Warrior have more utility than Dark when it comes to raids. Dark basically brings "dragon kick" to the fight. Monks use that for their rotations anyways and its not as crucial as reducing regular damage to most bosses. What you mentioned is true, but unless its a coordinated group that won't always happen where you'll have a ninja or a job that has the similar debuff in the group. What are the odds of getting that one dps/7 rather than a warrior/3 tanks. I'm not too well versed with dps jobs since I only tank so correct me if I'm wrong, but why should dps slow down their rotations (I know some moves that debuff bosses like dragon kick are in their dps rotations so I'm ignoring those) just to reapply a buff the tank HAS to do in order to maximize their damage anyways with storms eye and maim? The OT aren't going to do the same amount of damage a DPS is going to do and they hardly have any huge dps rotations to worry about so they have more leniency to keep applying the debuffs. We should be using storms path/storms eye anyways to make the raids life easier + what I've already mentioned with making our damage output better. Plus the debuffs give us stacks for fell cleave just the same as BB, and storms eye does around the same damage.

You seriously are ignoring the big picture for Storms eye.

[BadRNG]

Here is Lucrezia's Ravana speed kill, and here is their parse. Both tanks were going FULL DPS. DRK "beat" WAR by 40 DPS. Dummy parses mean poop. Real fights are what matter.

WAR "pays" for its DPS by losing all of its defenses while doing it.

WAR's "utility" is Storm Path. That. is. it. People are over exaggerating the f*** out of this buff. You can live without it. It is just Sacred Soil. A lot of the major important raid-wide AoE either 1) happens when the boss cannot be hit (Twintania ultimate after dives, T9 Megaflare, As1 Opressor Jumps) or 2) Can be healed through regardless. Also note that any good WAR will drop Storm Path out of its rotation to maintain higher DPS. Any "better" WAR will apply it for seconds before busters/raid DPS like how BRDs applied Rain of Death in 2.0 before the nerf.

PLD + DRK combos work JUST. AS. GOOD. Bring a NIN for the slashing debuff and the OT's TP. Bringing another job for a debuff is not new. It is the same as bringing a job for a buff (look BRD and MCN). PLD + WAR still needs monk's INT down if that's a concern. DRK + WAR will suffer more physical damage because no RoH and DRK is pure shite against physical damage.

Do you have any other parses? Because Ravana is a pretty terrible example, it's arguably the perfect DRK fight dps wise due to how the fight is set up. Not every fight is like that. I never even mentioned dummy parses. You also forgot to mention that, the WAR couldn't attack Ravana as much as the DRK. The shields, and since they were single tanking they couldn't risk vul stacks, the end of first liberation he had to back off while the other melee dps just ate the stack and kept attacking. The fact that he is still only 40dps behind despite losing several GCDs worth of attacks is pretty telling on it's own. The DRK also had the benefit of pretty much constant foes, as DP/SE are both effected by it.

What are you talking about? How do they lose their defense while dpsing? Are you talking about stance dancing? That's something both the other tanks would have to deal with as well if you were considering that part of their max dps.

If anyone is missing the point here it is you. You continue to say things like "BRING X CLASS TOO!” missing the point that WAR doesn't need any other class, that is part of why they are so strong. You don't ever need to build around them. There is no type of fight they cannot excel at. That's what this entire topic seems to be about. Are you being intentionally dense or are you just not understanding this basic idea?

I have to assume you don't actually raid if you think Storm's Path is not that good. It is hands down one of the best debuffs in the entire game. Every single major raid aoe you just listed come after the entire party is taking no damage and can just shield/buff up. The real use of Storm's Path is on the constant damage that is happening all the time - things where you don't get 10-20 seconds to buff up. It's not their only utility either - are you forgetting storm's eye? It's extra damage for both the other tank as well as good for NIN's if they are in the group.

PLD/DRK combos are most definitely not as good, especially in progression scenarios. I literally can't think of a fight in the entire game, from 2.0 to 3.0, where that combo would make more sense than one of them plus a WAR.

People cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot. PLD does not have to MT every fight. DRK does not and SHOULD NOT MT every fight. WAR does not need to be brought for every fight.

That is the entire crux of the issue. WAR is good MT AND OT on every single fight. There is not a single fight in this game where they do not excel. PLD and DRK have many scenarios where they don't. You yourself are saying this.

I guess the question is; why should WAR excel in every fight while DRK is only magic or PLD is only physical? The DPS thing is really a non-issue for me, if that is supposed to be the warrior's thing then so be it. But what exactly is the DRK and PLD's thing supposed to be? Just being in good in particular fights? It's not as versatile, and even in their preferred damage fights, it's not like WAR is bad at them. The way fights are designed around specific damage at certain times makes WAR's toolkit just perfect for any scenario.

[Phoenicia]

Huge snip.

On the Contrary, Ravana is a fight that favors burst. Burst is WAR's specialty. WAR losing a few GCDs is hardly a problem when the fight is supposed to favor them.

In Deliverance, WAR loses ALL its defenses (read: Inner Beast). DRK and PLD still have all their defensive CDs and only lose the tank stance EHP. In Deliverance WAR is just a sturdier DRG. Yes we can play with our other defensives, but those hardly work well on their without Inner Beast.

My point isn't that WAR needs another class. Yes WAR synergies with NIN and the other tanks are AMAZING. But Storm Eye debuff is not "unique".

I have been WAR main since 2.0 and I'm considering going back to it. I main tanked and off tanked EVERY fight in my statics' progression with the exception of T9 (where we went solo tank and I was SMN) and I have a few Phoenix server firsts (mainly primals) and seconds (T12 & T13) under my belt. So your accusation of me not raiding is irrelevant.

Storm Path IS SO OVERRATED and it is the ONLY WAR-exclusive benefit. I have always dropped it the second my healers got accustomed to boss rotations. Exception was in T13 because that fight's damage was ridiculously high. where I applied SP before Mega/Giga Flare and then let it drop for the rest of the fight. When my group got geared I dropped SP entirely. No other fight in the game is so highly tuned. In my Savage SCoB attempts I was a PLD.

PLD/DRK combos lose ONLY SP. Bringing a NIN is a raid DPS benefit since it does more DPS than MNK. Raid DPS wise, they are probably better than PLD/WAR with a monk and hardly behind DRK/WAR with NIN/DRG.

I'm not denying that WAR is excellent and versatile. WAR is the best designed tank of the three. I'm just saying it's not so far ahead of the other tanks.

If you read my other posts, you will see that WAR and PLD are close in mitigation. PLD is NOT "only physical". PLD and WAR do NOT suck at magic fights either. It's just DRK is stupid good against magical damage. Also notice that DRK is pure shite in physical fights. Check my post in page 9 if you wanna see the numbers again.

[Reynhart]

I'm not denying that WAR is excellent and versatile. WAR is the best designed tank of the three. I'm just saying it's not so far ahead of the other tanks.

Problem is, it IS ahead, even by "not so far".

Back when PLD was only 1-2-3n you could argue that WAR was far more difficult to play. Now that PLD has evolved and that DRK came up with its MP management, WAR is not that much more complicated to play.

[BadRNG]

It's not like DRK's damage is constant/sustained either though? PLD is really the only one where a substantial part of their damage is sustained (Sword Oath). Much of DRK's damage is frontloaded within a small period of time, it's just instead of a single move like WAR it's several oGCDs close together. Ravana heavily favors DRK just like it does WAR. Losing those GCDs definitely matters.

IB isn't WAR's only cooldown though, they are still pretty beefy even in deliverance. It's also far far easier to smoothly transition between DPS/tank stances on WAR than DRK/PLD, allowing you to DPS much more before changing is needed. If you are trying to argue WAR's weakness is that it's dps stance can't IB, I just don't understand how that is an exclusive weakness to them. At the very least it is not a weakness that can preclude their participation in either tanking role in any fight - the PLD/DRK weakness very well can. Or at the very least make them far less desirable.

I know it's not your point, rather it's my point that DRK actually needs other classes just to be on the same level that WAR is by itself. It's like, if you gave SMN's an ability that increased magic damage taken, and BLM were inferior dps wise unless they had this buff. Is it not a bit dishonest to claim they have equal dps when the only way that is possible is you have that other class with you to begin with? Why the extra work? (DRK's class design is filled with situations like this, but that's probably a discussion for another thread.)

The attack on your credibility was unnecessary and I apologize, but I just can't understand why you are downplaying Storm's Path to such a degree. If you truly feel it is not that much of a deal breaker, that it's not that great utility wise, then you must not think any utility in the game is that great. It really is one of the best skills out there. It's literally better than both PLD and DRK's debuffs combined!

As for the rest of your reply, it sounds like you are more less agreeing with the main topic. WAR has no real comparative weakness to PLD/DRK. Even if PLD doesn't suffer to the degree in magic that DRK does in physical, they still lose a large portion of their benefits. The problem is neither of them really gain much for these sacrifices. The fact that WAR is so versatile and can fit in any situation is what the whole argument is about, that DRK/PLD should be adjusted so they can be versatile as well. It's not, as you say, "people cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot." - it's more like people call imbalance because there is no spot where WAR can't play optimally. That is the imbalance, that is why WAR is ahead of them. That essentially DRK/PLD are just not as well designed. The imbalance does not need to be massive for one to exist.

[Phoenicia]

Problem is, it IS ahead, even by "not so far".

Back when PLD was only 1-2-3n you could argue that WAR was far more difficult to play. Now that PLD has evolved and that DRK came up with its MP management, WAR is not that much more complicated to play.

So PLD "evolved" to occasionally apply Goring Blade while STILL maintaining the core of "press 1 button to survive x seconds". PLD is still by far the easiest class to play In the entire game.

WAR is "barely" ahead of the other tanks by design. WAR pays the price of relative mechanical complexity. WAR is "not that much more" complicated to play, but it is still "more". (hear this line somewhere before? lol)

Reskinned PLD-- err, DRK, MP management is a joke. It's literally use a Siphon Strike combo, which also happens to be your higher damage combo, to pump Dark Arts for more.... damage. There is no real complexity in its decision tree that throws you off balance. Hint: a DRK Pressing 1, 2, 3 (Power Slash combo) and popping CDs to mitigate damage does the exact same function as a slightly gimped PLD.

[Reynhart]

WAR is "not that much more" complicated to play, but it is still "more". (hear this line somewhere before? lol)

Well, WAR is just switching between two combos over and over, while popping Inner Beast exatcly when you want.
In fact, I don't see what makes WAR more complicated than PLD now.

It's literally use a Siphon Strike combo, which also happens to be your higher damage combo, to pump Dark Arts for more.... damage. There is no real complexity in its decision tree that throws you off balance.

If that's what DRK is for you, you obviously don't push it very far.

Hint: a DRK Pressing 1, 2, 3 (Power Slash combo) and popping CDs to mitigate damage does the exact same function as a slightly gimped PLD.

Hint : A WAR pressing 1, 2, 3 (Butcher's Block combo) and keeping Wrath stacks at full for popping Inner Beast (With or without Vengeance) to mitigate damage does the same function as a not at all gimped PLD.

[Ditto]

In Deliverance, WAR loses ALL its defenses (read: Inner Beast).

'ALL of their defenses'

'Inner Beast'

9/10 made me chuckle. A good War will always know when they'll need to Inner Beast. Wars have the benefit of resource-less stance dancing on just a 10 second cooldown. And on top of that, any stacks are converted to the other stance.

War doesn't lose any more mitigation than a Drk or a Pld does when stance dancing, because Inner Beast is COMPLETELY situational. There is NEVER a time you should Inner Beast over a Fell Cleave unless a tank buster is coming in, or you're taking a lot of damage anyway, which if you are, you'd want to be in your tanking stance anyway.

If Fell Cleave were usable under Defiance, you'd STILL be Fell Cleaving instead of using Inner Beast if you don't need it. It's no different than any other mitigation CD, only difference is it has the shortest CD of them all.

And lets not just act like Wars don't have other CD's either.