Do Warriors have any single disadvantage?

[Yorumi]

Why does everyone jump straight to nerf WAR instead of buff PLD and DRK?

Because "buff everyone" is the equivalent of using bumper sticker quotes in an academic debate. In a perfect world it all sounds good just provide some buffs. But that throws off dps checks, which causes fights to need to be retuned, could affect the pacing of fights, the viability of other classes in fights and so on in a cascading domino effect. It's a sad truth but in the real world dealing with real developers, nerfs to one class and sadly far far more practical than buffs to multiple classes.

[Phoenicia]

Things.

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

[Tila]

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

[Giantbane]

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

If balance for PLD is supposed to be they are more defensive and that's why they have lower DPS, that's one thing. However, if PLD is only more defensive against physical damage (not magical) and then SE makes most of the threatening moves in a raid magical, then the PLD loses his intended advantage while keeping his weakness.

It would be similar if all of the raid content had heavy physical busters and didn't have stringent DPS checks, or didn't have stringent DPS checks that the MT could participate in for some reason. DRK would be all weakness, no strength in these situations.

[Phoenicia]

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

You are right. But even tip top raiders are people, they are prone to overlook things. I haven't watched the streams either, but I think I can safely assume that in As3, Lucrezia and Elysium did not try to make the WAR MT and PLD OT before kicking out the PLD and MNK and replacing them with DRK and NIN.

My point is that PLD isn't glaringly imbalanced. PLD's inherent disadvantage is that it does the lowest MT DPS as a price they pay for being the safest tank in the game. PLD has the most potent offensive stance of the three tanks at the price of lowest aggro generation out of tank stance. That is pretty balanced imo.

Now before people mistake this, Safest tank =/= highest mitigation. My post on page 9 shows that PLD has no clear advantage over WAR in mitigation and both WAR and PLD are far ahead DRK in physical and far behind DRK in magical environments.

If balance for PLD is supposed to be they are more defensive and that's why they have lower DPS, that's one thing. However, if PLD is only more defensive against physical damage (not magical) and then SE makes most of the threatening moves in a raid magical, then the PLD loses his intended advantage while keeping his weakness.

It would be similar if all of the raid content had heavy physical busters and didn't have stringent DPS checks, or didn't have stringent DPS checks that the MT could participate in for some reason. DRK would be all weakness, no strength in these situations.

As I said in my other posts, if PLD's advantage as MT is lost, just have it OT. Being so fixated on sticking PLD to the MT role is what is killing the paladin princesses out there. There are TWO other tanks in this game that do a better job in a certain fight. That is fine as that is the point of having different classes. Some classes have to be better than others at something. There is no need for PLD to level DRK or even switch to anything else.

Taking A4 as an example (As it is the only fight in the game where Shield is totally neglected when PLD main tanks), that fight has adds and quarantine, PLD SwO DPS is not far behind WAR and DRK, PLD OT utility is great with Clemency. Just switch your WAR (Since he's in every raid group, right?) to MT and let the PLD OT that one fight! Guess what happens? MAGIC!

WAR MT does far more DPS than PLD MT. The combination of WAR MT / PLD OT has overall more raid DPS than PLD MT / WAR OT specially if WAR stance dances. With roughly 1 minute intervals between busters, that's plenty of time in Deliverance!

[Giantbane]

You are right. But even tip top raiders are people, they are prone to overlook things. I haven't watched the streams either, but I think I can safely assume that in As3, Lucrezia and Elysium did not try to make the WAR MT and PLD OT before kicking out the PLD and MNK and replacing them with DRK and NIN.

My point is that PLD isn't glaringly imbalanced. PLD's inherent disadvantage is that it does the lowest MT DPS as a price they pay for being the safest tank in the game. PLD has the most potent offensive stance of the three tanks at the price of lowest aggro generation out of tank stance. That is pretty balanced imo.

I think PLD is still doing lower DPS even when in their "most potent offensive stance". So what it really means is that when the PLD loses that, it's DPS becomes very noticeably lower than the other two classes while tanking.

[Phoenicia]

I think PLD is still doing lower DPS even when in their "most potent offensive stance". So what it really means is that when the PLD loses that, it's DPS becomes very noticeably lower than the other two classes while tanking.

As I said before, a cheap price to pay for the relative safety they inherently bring compared to the other jobs.

[Giantbane]

As I said before, a cheap price to pay for the relative safety they inherently bring compared to the other jobs.

It's too low, and if there's too much magic damage, they aren't safe. The result is low DPS for nothing gained.

Clemency is good sometimes (if they have time to cast it), but using it further reduces their DPS as OT, which is already looking to be lower than the other 2 as an OT.

[BadRNG]

Yes, that would be true if DRK and PLD were actually leagues behind compared to WAR DPS. But they aren't! Both DRK and PLD are equal and very close respectively to WAR's DPS once the slashing debuff is applied. No buffs needed.

The problem is people are crying about PLD MT DPS, but PLD's MT DPS is its inherent disadvantage, in a fight where PLD's advantage (shield) is thrown out the window, the ACTUAL work around is to let the PLD OT and the other tank (WAR or DRK) MT. The problem is NOT that PLD sucks. It is that people are too stupid to work around its flaws.

Can you show me some parses of PLD/DRK hitting the same upper limits of WAR, even with slashing debuff? I've never seen any good ones. Closest thing was DRK pre-DA fix, but after that I'm not sure how they can achieve similar DPS as WAR as that was a pretty large DPS hit.

Your second point is just further proving the OP's original post. You're basically agreeing that WAR can be a good MT/OT with no penalty in every fight, it's really only PLD/DRK who you have to actually plan your entire raid comp around or consider the fight. WAR just fits no matter what, in either role.

I don't think that WAR needs a nerf, and being the top DPS tank isn't really an issue either, it's just that they give up nothing in order to have it. All of their strengths are general use and apply in every fight, and like the OP said, they don't have a real glaring weakness like the other tanks have. The smartest solution would be to make both DRK/PLD have that same viability, so that they can fit in either role. Right now that's just not the case. Telling PLD's or DRK's to just OT in magic/physical fights respectively is missing the point entirely, as WAR is even the better OT. They do have more damage. They do have more sustainability. They do bring better utility.

I think the only reason you don't see WAR/WAR combos at this point is simply because many groups are bringing DRG over MNK now, and therefore DRK's main reason to be there is it's ability to have a DK substitute. (well that an LB, I guess)

People fail to realize that not all tanks are the same, and that balance should not be based around the top 1% meta. Balancing around the tip top is a bad move since they will always pick whats best, and there will always be a best. Always.

Balance should be done around the top meta because that is not only where balance issues are most glaringly obvious or relevant, it also tends to trickle down into player perception. People see these raid set ups and often emulate or believe they must be the best. This leads to general group discrimination.

Besides, what else would you base balance on? There's no other content in the game where it could actually matter, people can clear everything else no matter the composition.

[Phoenicia]

Bunch of things that are missing the point

Here is Lucrezia's Ravana speed kill, and here is their parse. Both tanks were going FULL DPS. DRK "beat" WAR by 40 DPS. Dummy parses mean poop. Real fights are what matter.

WAR "pays" for its DPS by losing all of its defenses while doing it.

WAR's "utility" is Storm Path. That. is. it. People are over exaggerating the f*** out of this buff. You can live without it. It is just Sacred Soil. A lot of the major important raid-wide AoE either 1) happens when the boss cannot be hit (Twintania ultimate after dives, T9 Megaflare, As1 Opressor Jumps) or 2) Can be healed through regardless. Also note that any good WAR will drop Storm Path out of its rotation to maintain higher DPS. Any "better" WAR will apply it for seconds before busters/raid DPS like how BRDs applied Rain of Death in 2.0 before the nerf.

PLD + DRK combos work JUST. AS. GOOD. Bring a NIN for the slashing debuff and the OT's TP. Bringing another job for a debuff is not new. It is the same as bringing a job for a buff (look BRD and MCN). PLD + WAR still needs monk's INT down if that's a concern. DRK + WAR will suffer more physical damage because no RoH and DRK is pure shite against physical damage.

If you think WAR "needs" equilibrium to sustain its TP outside of As2, you know jack about WAR and how it plays. Not to mention all fights have TP breaks in boss invulnerabilities or mechanic handling. There are very few exceptions (namely T8 and T11).

People cry about irrelevant things and call imbalance the second their job does not perform optimally in their preferred spot. PLD does not have to MT every fight. DRK does not and SHOULD NOT MT every fight. WAR does not need to be brought for every fight.