Protect? Really important? Low level content

[Leiloni]

It's kind of tough on this point, not sure if you tank much, but there are DPS healers that are bad. It took me a while to see this since I'm a healer main and queue almost exclusively as a healer, but some healers try to DPS and are entirely unable to do so safely. Since the point of the discussion is low level dungeons, the tank could very well be low level and not be experienced enough to tell the difference between a good healer a bad one right off the bat. It is frustrating that people don't put their faith in you when you have absolute confidence in your ability, and I think that's one reason why it's such a volatile subject. You zone in with the intention of doing 100% of your job and more, and people tell you you're doing it wrong.

This is a very good point for one thing. Along with the fact that Protect is one cast. It doesn't hurt to cast it to make your group happy and then go back to slotting Cleric. It's just stubborn and I'm of the opinion that we are healers first, so any extra damage reduction we can add is our job.

But further, how many times do we as healers complain about bad tanks? Or tanks that don't use this skill or do this other thing a certain way? Or a dps that isn't putting out enough damage, or getting hit by things he shouldn't, etc. That goes both ways. If you are thinking things like that about your groups occasionally and feel like you have the right to do so, I guarantee your groupmates are sometimes thinking the same about you and they're not always going to be wrong about that. A lot of the healers in this community have this idea that they're perfect and know everything and should never need to listen to anybody else. It's really not helpful and nobody likes any player of any role that acts like that. Be a team player.

[Cynfael]

This is a very good point for one thing. Along with the fact that Protect is one cast. It doesn't hurt to cast it to make your group happy and then go back to slotting Cleric. It's just stubborn and I'm of the opinion that we are healers first, so any extra damage reduction we can add is our job.

Agreed...providing that your group is willing to wait for the CD on ability-swapping. If they aren't, and you're limited to using one or the other, CS is clearly the superior choice for damage reduction in low-level duties, assuming that the healer is pulling enough weight.

[ArcheDragon]

It's kind of tough on this point, not sure if you tank much, but there are DPS healers that are bad. It took me a while to see this since I'm a healer main and queue almost exclusively as a healer, but some healers try to DPS and are entirely unable to do so safely. Since the point of the discussion is low level dungeons, the tank could very well be low level and not be experienced enough to tell the difference between a good healer a bad one right off the bat. It is frustrating that people don't put their faith in you when you have absolute confidence in your ability, and I think that's one reason why it's such a volatile subject. You zone in with the intention of doing 100% of your job and more, and people tell you you're doing it wrong.

I see your point, but a new tank should not be trying to comment on how a healer does their job. There are bad healers. There are also bad tanks. I've done runs where the tank forgets to put up shield oath but you don't see me rage quitting. I heal them. I don't see the point in assuming that all players are bad and thus their play style should be homogenized or else you quit. Respect your fellow players, and if then things go wrong, try and help. If you honestly believe that a group wouldn't have wiped with the extra 1-4% mitigation that protect offers, then your healer isn't the only bad player. For something like that to cause wipes it must be progression content or an ill-equipped tank AND a very bad healer. A healer so bad as to have NEVER healed before and not even know that they should be HEALING... Again, that is if you think protect would have saved a group. That isn't even considering the fact that dps is another form of mitigation and if a healer doesn't heal at all then they must be putting out plenty of mitigation, in which case they should have been healing but protect wouldn't have saved you as it is less mitigation than the damage that they were doing.

In other words, in cases where one physick fully heals a player, protect isn't important, imho, and that is the case for most healers in low level dungeons.

[Leiloni]

Agreed... providing that your group is willing to wait for the CD on ability-swapping. If they aren't, and you're limited to using one or the other, CS is clearly the superior choice for damage reduction in low-level duties, assuming that the healer is pulling enough weight.

You don't really need to wait. I've had groups in low level dungeons where I buff, swap it out, and as they're running to the first pack of mobs I'm waiting for my CD. Sure they might be killing stuff as you stand there waiting for the CD, but they shouldn't need many heals that early anyway. And at that level your heal does a lot so one heal gets them back to full. You don't need your group to wait for you at all.

And this is literally only a problem in the first two dungeons when you have just one cross class slot (if you're leveled down in DF). By the time you hit Copperbell it's a non issue since you can equip both. Unless you really are afraid someone's going to somehow die in a low level dungeon and you need Swiftcast slotted, then you have a couple more easy dungeons to worry about before level 30 at which point there's no excuse not to have all three.

I see your point, but a new tank should not be trying to comment on how a healer does their job. There are bad healers. There are also bad tanks. I've done runs where the tank forgets to put up shield oath but you don't see me rage quitting. I heal them. I don't see the point in assuming that all players are bad and thus their play style should be homogenized or else you quit. Respect your fellow players, and if then things go wrong, try and help. If you honestly believe that a group wouldn't have wiped with the extra 1-4% mitigation that protect offers, then your healer isn't the only bad player. For something like that to cause wipes it must be progression content or an ill-equipped tank AND a very bad healer. A healer so bad as to have NEVER healed before and not even know that they should be HEALING... Again, that is if you think protect would have saved a group. That isn't even considering the fact that dps is another form of mitigation and if a healer doesn't heal at all then they must be putting out plenty of mitigation, in which case they should have been healing but protect wouldn't have saved you as it is less mitigation than the damage that they were doing.

In other words, in cases where one physick fully heals a player, protect isn't important, imho, and that is the case for most healers in low level dungeons.

Right but that Cleric Stance isn't going to have a huge impact, either at low levels with easy content. But if your first job is as a healer and you can make things easier, then why not do it? Are you trying to say if something isn't absolutely game breaking that healers should just slack off and only do what's absolutely required? People should be giving it their all and making the run as smooth as they can. I mean you can go in with no cross class skills and be fine and do only the bare minimum by throwing occasional heals and no dps and no buffs, that doesn't mean you should.

[Makeda]

At level 30 its a toss.

I just got out of that bracket on my scholar and I ran this dungeon 3 or 4 times alongside a lot of guildhests. I found every few tanks is annoyingly soft and takes a lot of active healing... but that for the others I could almost AFK and let my fairy run the dungeon on her own...
- At level 30, I also find the DPS I do seems to not matter much. Things did not speed up in the runs I DPSed a lot, nor slow down in the runs I was spending all my time healing a softer tank.

So protect... some of the tanks at that level will need it, a lot - maybe they are undergeared or underskilled or both. Some of them only need you there because the Duty Finder insists on a healer...


As others noted, this is the level bracket where things finally start to actually hit you with something bigger than a toothpick - and there isn't really a flat out 'yes or no' answer. My tank got up to level 48 before I left this game a year or so back, and I remember not taking much in the way of damage until I think the level 35 or 38 dungeon...

I'd wager that by level 40+, a tank has the right to demand the healer be putting up Protection. Under that - its kind of something the healer needs to guage based on how soft the tank is... and you might as well slot it in there because under level 40, your DPS is kind of insignificant anyway...

[WingsOfAzrael]

its not vital to have early game but it is end game

[Cynfael]

You don't really need to wait. I've had groups in low level dungeons where I buff, swap it out, and as they're running to the first pack of mobs I'm waiting for my CD. Sure they might be killing stuff as you stand there waiting for the CD, but they shouldn't need many heals that early anyway. And at that level your heal does a lot so one heal gets them back to full. You don't need your group to wait for you at all.

True, with SCH it's a sort of false dichotomy to assume that the group must wait. My main point, though, is that CS definitely trumps Protect when it comes to order of priority. I still agree that you might as well cast it whenever possible, even in those low-level situations where the benefit is negligible.

[ArcheDragon]

You don't really need to wait. I've had groups in low level dungeons where I buff, swap it out, and as they're running to the first pack of mobs I'm waiting for my CD. Sure they might be killing stuff as you stand there waiting for the CD, but they shouldn't need many heals that early anyway. And at that level your heal does a lot so one heal gets them back to full. You don't need your group to wait for you at all.

And this is literally only a problem in the first two dungeons when you have just one cross class slot (if you're leveled down in DF). By the time you hit Copperbell it's a non issue since you can equip both. Unless you really are afraid someone's going to somehow die in a low level dungeon and you need Swiftcast slotted, then you have a couple more easy dungeons to worry about before level 30 at which point there's no excuse not to have all three.



Right but that Cleric Stance isn't going to have a huge impact, either at low levels with easy content. But if your first job is as a healer and you can make things easier, then why not do it? Are you trying to say if something isn't absolutely game breaking that healers should just slack off and only do what's absolutely required? People should be giving it their all and making the run as smooth as they can. I mean you can go in with no cross class skills and be fine and do only the bare minimum by throwing occasional heals and no dps and no buffs, that doesn't mean you should.

Cleric Stance has a much bigger impact on mitigation than protect does at that level. It would be hard to argue that a 10% magic damage increase isn't as good as a 1-4% mitigation increase.

I also do not understand how you have made up this belief that I could somehow be implying that healers should only do what is absolutely necessary, and nothing more. I'm sitting here trying to get the ABSOLUTE MOST out of my character! I still don't think a lot of people understand that damage is a form of mitigation and my job as a "healer" isn't simply spamming physick until the end of the dungeon. There are many ways to keep people alive and damage is the BEST way to do so if it is possible. A dead mob deals NO damage while protect stops about 5% AT BEST it seems. If I could deal enough damage to kill everything before they needed a heal then that is BETTER, objectively, than letting the fight take longer and occasionally casting a heal. By dealing damage I DO make things easier. I make things easier for the tank, for the dps, and for myself. I make the run faster and nobody dies. What else do you want? Or would YOU rather we only do what is absolutely necessary and nothing more? Protect is passive and dps is active. To argue for protect in low level dungeons is akin to arguing for healers to not dps. After all, why aren't we spamming heals? That is what the healer job is, after all, right?!

[Kazumac]

Yeah I don't run protect in my first 1-2 slots but if someone would ask for it, I'd switch and take it that they aren't confident in their gear and ability to press cooldowns appropriately. If they are in a state that is go go go they won't care and won't ask. Honestly it's quicker and less hassle to switch than make a stink about it. Not worth the time on the argument with a random in DF. But that's my opinion... I try to minimize conflict with randoms as much as possible. Not worth the headache even if it's less efficient.

[Leiloni]

Cleric Stance has a much bigger impact on mitigation than protect does at that level. It would be hard to argue that a 10% magic damage increase isn't as good as a 1-4% mitigation increase.

I also do not understand how you have made up this belief that I could somehow be implying that healers should only do what is absolutely necessary, and nothing more. I'm sitting here trying to get the ABSOLUTE MOST out of my character! I still don't think a lot of people understand that damage is a form of mitigation and my job as a "healer" isn't simply spamming physick until the end of the dungeon. There are many ways to keep people alive and damage is the BEST way to do so if it is possible. A dead mob deals NO damage while protect stops about 5% AT BEST it seems. If I could deal enough damage to kill everything before they needed a heal then that is BETTER, objectively, than letting the fight take longer and occasionally casting a heal. By dealing damage I DO make things easier. I make things easier for the tank, for the dps, and for myself. I make the run faster and nobody dies. What else do you want? Or would YOU rather we only do what is absolutely necessary and nothing more? Protect is passive and dps is active. To argue for protect in low level dungeons is akin to arguing for healers to not dps. After all, why aren't we spamming heals? That is what the healer job is, after all, right?!

My question was, why are you so averse to doing both? You keep making up all these numbers to avoid casting one skill at the start of the dungeon. Why do you feel so strongly about not doing the most you can as a healer? Why is dps so important but preventing damage via buffs is not? It's honestly rather strange.