Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[Anokh]

I really get what you're saying in saying it makes things more complicated at level 58 without adding any extra dps/reward. I got to lvl 58 on my Dragoon yesterday and I think the way it is, while imperfect, works well.

The reason is that the level 56 ability made me get used to having an extra ability in my rotation without having to worry about the randomness. Now that I'm used to that extra ability, they add the randomness which they intended the entire time. It does feel a bit like punishment, but I think the progression helps to learn it better. I certainly like it this way a lot better than the alternative of learning both abilities at the same time.

[whiskeybravo]

I certainly like it this way a lot better than the alternative of learning both abilities at the same time.

That's what's silly, even if you did learn them at the same time, assuming they each still have their own positional requirement, it doesn't change the randomness factor that some people seem to find annoying. As I said earlier, it helped me a lot knowing that this was going to happen before I started leveling DRG, and was able to mentally adapt well before unlocking them, so when I got them I knew exactly where they were going to be on my hotbars, I had the icons enlarged above my main hotbar (thanks Dervy!) and was good to go the moment I got it. It took no time to adjust. But their argument isn't over that really, it's that every new ability on every class must improve the class and in this particular case it doesn't offer a "direct" improvement, but is the 3rd of 4 parts to a completely new mechanic. Shortsightedness IMO.

[Aiselia]

I can't think of any other job that got something entirely pointless (or worse, outright detrimental) in their post-50 kit besides DRG.

Warden's Paean.

Outright detrimental would mean that it is objectively a DPS loss under all situations. Since it does the same damage, it's clearly not an objective DPS loss unless you refuse to move.

Consider, though, the following situation:

Boss puts out AOE circles under the feet of random DPS. DRG on flank gets circle put underneath them. Boss is too big to run to the other side without pausing attack combo. DRG hits 4th step of combo.

With only F&C, DRG eats potency loss by having to hit from behind with a flank-increased attack or has to delay attack combo in order to reach the other side. Either way, objective damage loss. Or they could keep the stereotype alive and risk eating the AOE.

With WT added, there's a 50% chance that the DRG will get a rear-increased attack, allowing them to keep their combo flow and not eat a potency loss.

So there you go. A situation where having only F&C would have been an objective DPS loss.

[Zophar]

I will say this now no one is saying the class is hard, no one is saying its hard to do positionals.

Funny. I'm seeing a lot of people saying exactly that. I'm not going to reread 34 pages of text to pull them all out, but if you'd like to, there are plenty of examples out there.

[Leonus]

The reward of being a DRG that can execute a simple 1-2 mechanic without complaining is fantastic. Should try it out sometime.

Even if you entirely disregard the positional bonus it's still a benefit (your "increased output") as long as you maintain BotD and execute jumps and GK properly.

This is the thing people do not see.

@ Aiselia

Thank you for pointing it out. Some people see the "same" move, then cry about "it doesn't do anything for me" without taking a step back and looking at the entire thing.

[Ronzeru]

I really don't think a lot of you understand how many people are already wanting to look towards a DRG nerf right now..... and you're asking for this. At this rate, you guys will get this... along with a damage decrease. And then i'll be back to say, 'I told you so'. Between the damage increase of BL, the piercing dmg increase to MCH/BRD, and the natural DPS we already do... others are saying we have too much utility + damage in combination as is, due to feeling we are absolutely necessary for Savage in a lot of peoples minds. Complaining about something this insignificant.. drawing attention to the job.... when others feel we're already OP, is essentially bending over and asking to be repeatedly entered from behind by a nerf-bat.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

How did you miss this part: "The matter at hand is simply this: DRG is *hindered* going from having F&C only, to having F&C and WT. And that is some kind of messed up considering no other quested ability in the game works this way" ?

It's actually not detrimental in the slightest according to simple maths.

It might not be detrimental compared to losing both, but if DRG could skip its level 58 ability and grab Geirskogul without it, it would be stronger. No other ability in this game, upon addition, nerfs its own job with no new rewards in that manner. Not completely removing a prior benefit does not excuse reducing its value in a manner contrary to all other instances of job design. A debate over spilled milk though it may be, it was still incredibly stupid implementation.

[Fynlar]

But their argument isn't over that really, it's that every new ability on every class must improve the class and in this particular case it doesn't offer a "direct" improvement, but is the 3rd of 4 parts to a completely new mechanic. Shortsightedness IMO.

It doesn't offer ANY improvement, and in fact offers a nerf. Show me another ability that nerfs the job for no return, please.

Doesn't good (if not top) performance contradict your opinion of a design flaw? By definition a flawed design would not perform well.

Nope, it doesn't. Have you never seen judges/critics being all like "that was good, but here's what could be better"?

Flawed design does not necessarily mean bad performance, either. If Wheeling Thrust had 1 million potency, that would still be a design flaw because it would be massively imbalanced.

Warden's Paean.

Still good for pre-fight or during downtime to put on the WAR for Berserk. So, nope.

And again, even if it wasn't useful for that, you still could just... not use it, and it wouldn't gimp you like unlocking Wheeling Thrust does.

Consider, though, the following situation:

Boss puts out AOE circles under the feet of random DPS. DRG on flank gets circle put underneath them. Boss is too big to run to the other side without pausing attack combo. DRG hits 4th step of combo.

With only F&C, DRG eats potency loss by having to hit from behind with a flank-increased attack or has to delay attack combo in order to reach the other side. Either way, objective damage loss. Or they could keep the stereotype alive and risk eating the AOE.

With WT added, there's a 50% chance that the DRG will get a rear-increased attack, allowing them to keep their combo flow and not eat a potency loss.

So there you go. A situation where having only F&C would have been an objective DPS loss.

That's pretty convoluted, and I could just as easily imagine a scenario where that's reversed (as in, you only have an opportunity to attack from the flank but now Wheeling Thrust procs are screwing you)

In fact, I can picture those more easily than I can your situation, just thinking back to Titan EX and how everyone stacks on his butt, making his butt a periodic death zone via Weights.

Either way, it's pointless to bicker over these sorts of situations because of one thing: the game doesn't let you choose which attack you get. The only way you can is by not unlocking Wheeling Thrust. Make it so that we could use either one and the arguments would go away (even though Wheeling Thrust would still be guilty of being a rather superfluous level 58 ability)

[Aiselia]

And again, even if it wasn't useful for that, you still could just... not use it, and it wouldn't gimp you like unlocking Wheeling Thrust does.

But unlocking Wheeling Thrust doesn't gimp you. You don't objectively do any less damage for having it.

That's pretty convoluted

First boss of Fractal does cone AOEs to his front/back and both sides. Getting F&C during a both-sides AOE means either living the stereotype or taking a potency loss. With WT, you have a 50% chance to not be limited.

Fortunately for me, I'm not trying to prove it's always useful. Just that it has situations where it is.

So... y'know, it's situationally useful. Like several new skills.

Warden's Paean, for example. Warriors get Raw Intuition, which is only situationally useful. If you're fighting a lot of trash or a few big trash mobs, the mobs are likely to spread to the side far enough to be autocritting you, as well as you have to stay targetting the centre mob because if you target side mobs, the other side will crit you. Monks get Tornado Kick, which is situational for just before something disappears and you won't be able to maintain your GL stacks, or as a finishing hit.

Not every skill is meant to be 100% useful all the time.

However, to say that it is objectively making you worse is false and implies that you think you'll always be able to hit from the side whenever you want.

Under optimal conditions where you're not forced to hit from a specific direction, it's not a DPS loss at all unless you're really bad at hitting positionals.

[Fynlar]

But unlocking Wheeling Thrust doesn't gimp you. You don't objectively do any less damage for having it.

It requires more attention and reaction to be able to do the same amount of damage, so that's still a gimping. Not increasing a job's damage potential but making it progressively more and more difficult to actually hit that damage potential is still nerfing the job, because it will mean progressively fewer and fewer people will be able to actually meet that potential.

Before, you wouldn't even have to pay attention to which buff you get before knowing where to go for the 4th part of the combo. This means the 4th hit is not going to get sweet spotted as often, which means -- surprise -- a DPS loss.

Imagine if they changed Chaos Thrust so that 50% of the time it was sweet spotted from the flank, and 50% of the time it was sweet spotted from the rear (and that when you use Disembowel it gives you a similar status icon to know which is which). Are you saying there would be no difference in the amount of times Chaos Thrust would get flubbed, and therefore it wouldn't be a nerf?

First boss of Fractal does cone AOEs to his front/back and both sides. Getting F&C during a both-sides AOE means either living the stereotype or taking a potency loss. With WT, you have a 50% chance to not be limited.

Fortunately for me, I'm not trying to prove it's always useful. Just that it has situations where it is.

So... y'know, it's situationally useful. Like several new skills.

Like I said, this only really would apply if we had the ability to choose what we use instead of leaving it up to RNG (because in that case, having WT would at least be offering you the somewhat dubious benefit of allowing you to get full potency from the back too, if the flank was unavailable). Otherwise, it can just as easily work against you too.