Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[Jonnycbad]

Wheeling Thrust and Fang&Claw should be learned together at 56 would absolve all of these issues. Let's propose fun ideas for a real level 58 ability. I'm thinking support/utility abilities that don't buff DPS per se but enhance either debuffs or our AoE rotation:

Camlann's Torment:
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100 to all enemies in a cone before you.
Combo Action: Ring of Thorns
Potency: 220
Additional Effect: Slow

Gives a bit more oomph and a third combo to the seemingly short HT>RoT combo with a nice little slow effect. Tricky to setup due to HT>RoT's positional requirement..otherwise Doom Spike is probably still better.

Angon:
Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Piercing Talon
Potency: 190
TP Cost: 150

This would be a neat little boost to ranged DPS for mechanics where you need to stay out of range but maintain damage i.e. Ravana's Surpanakhas or other kited fights. Huge TP consumption wouldn't detract from MCH or BRD range DPS.

Drakesbane
Delivers an attack with a potency of 100.
Combo Action: Feint
Additional Effect: Blind/Gravity

This would give a bit more purpose to Feint and an option for DRG to have some form of crowd control. Feint is usually used in low level situations because 20% is potent, but having it weigh a target down and blind it, it helps decrease incoming damage further.


Again just one of these would be better than getting Wheeling Thrust at 58. We're already strong enough in single target DPS, giving us a slight boost for situations where we need crowd control in 4 man dungeons (if healer or tank dies...it'll go well with Keen Flurry), a boost to ranged DPS for mechanics where we DPSing in melee range is virtually impossible (albeit at an extremely high TP cost), or a slight boost to our AoE damage by adding a 3rd combo to HT>RoT combo, because DS is only 160 potency...damage barely ever tops half of what a single Holy does.

Highwind
Delivers a jumping attack with a potency of 300. Returns you to your original position after the attack is made.
Additional Effect: Reduces duration of Blood of the Dragon by 30s.

Another option is an ability which COMPLETELY negates BoTD time no matter its duration, but does big damage. For those moments where BoTD has 1-2 sec up before you can refresh it. If doing a proper rotations, technically Geirskogul would still be better as you could do 3 per 60 sec, whereas Highwind would consume the whole effect entirely, which makes it only good as a last ditch spike in damage. BoTD wouldn't buff Highwind by 30% nor would Power Surge affect it either.

[vex]

As a DRG myself, I can play the game just fine and land the bulk of the WT/FC procs, but at the same time I really hate the WT mechanic and I agree that it was a really poor design added to do nothing but add complexity to the BoTD "experience" or whatever you want to call it. I'm pretty sure that eventually SE will "fix" it just like they "fixed" Heavy Thrust to not require flank to give the buff. What the fix will be, who knows. They already changed the 100pot to 200pot on missed positional. It would be completely unsurprising to me to see it "fixed" further.

[Fynlar]

Wheeling Thrust and Fang&Claw should be learned together at 56 would absolve all of these issues.

This would also be an acceptable change, and I would take any of your suggestions as an actual meaningful level 58 ability.

[whiskeybravo]

Risks are okay, we just want an actual reward to go along with the risk.

The reward of being a DRG that can execute a simple 1-2 mechanic without complaining is fantastic. Should try it out sometime.

Even if you entirely disregard the positional bonus it's still a benefit (your "increased output") as long as you maintain BotD and execute jumps and GK properly.

[Remus]

I will say this now no one is saying the class is hard, no one is saying its hard to do positionals. When I reached 58 I honestly wished I could skip Wheeling thrust because it doesn't benefit me in anyway to have it. When they add more complexity to a rotation I expect a benefit in return but having this skill brings no benefit with it and that's why people hate it. Any DRG I have encountered in-game has said "yeah the job is fine but they really wish they changed wheeling thrust because its just useless and feels like SE didn't know what to do for a skill so they made a clone." I play my class just fine I do top DPS numerous times this doesn't mean I enjoy the skill.

Even if you didn't have Wheeling Thrust you would still be able to perform Geirskogul because Fang & Claw increase the duration anyway...so why have it???? I can still do my full rotation without it, this shows how useless the skill is and adds nothing except for complexity which personally I don't like and numerous other people i know in FC and friends. What i do like is adding complexity and getting some form of benefit from it.

Now i ask the question... WHY DO YOU WANT A SKILL WHICH DOES NOTHING BUT ADD COMPLEXITY WITH NO RETURN WHILE A SKILL I GOT AT 56 DOES THE SAME THING???

[MythToken]

Just to add some perspective didn't read this whole thread, too long, but you do know that DRG is currently sitting at the top of DPS?
Don't really think they need to be "fixed".

[whiskeybravo]

WHY DO YOU WANT A SKILL WHICH DOES NOTHING BUT ADD COMPLEXITY WITH NO RETURN WHILE A SKILL I GOT AT 56 DOES THE SAME THING???

Sorry, I just don't find Wheeling Thrust annoying or useless in the slightest. There's certainly useless skills and abilities in the game, but this is not one of them. I think the message is clear that F&C and WT are specifically to make the rotation more complex and further differentiate DRG from the other melee. As it stands MNK NIN and DRG all have their own unique mechanics to deal with and maintain for optimal damage output. Would a new jump have been cool? Sure, but since GK fills that same position as a new oGCD, would we have gotten both a new jump and GK? Probably not. It probably would've been some other bloat/"support" ability that takes it's place. I mean look at the new NIN skills, is that what you want? 2 abilities that don't increase "output" whatsoever? That aren't even attacks? Honestly out of all the new 52-60 abilities I think DRG and WAR got it best. Be careful what you wish for.

Edit: SMN got it good too.

[Fynlar]

The reward of being a DRG that can execute a simple 1-2 mechanic without complaining is fantastic. Should try it out sometime.

Even if you entirely disregard the positional bonus it's still a benefit (your "increased output") as long as you maintain BotD and execute jumps and GK properly.

I really have no clue what you're trying to point out here. This thread isn't about 60 or Geirskogul.

The matter at hand is simply this: DRG is *hindered* going from having F&C only, to having F&C and WT. And that is some kind of messed up considering no other quested ability in the game works this way.

If you think this is wrong, I'd love to hear your reasoning why. "Added challenge" on its own is not a benefit, for the record.

Just to add some perspective didn't read this whole thread, too long, but you do know that DRG is currently sitting at the top of DPS?
Don't really think they need to be "fixed".

Your perspective is unneeded, because there has been no shortage of people pointing that out.

It's also irrelevant to the main point, as just because a job has good performance in gameplay doesn't mean it can't still have blatant design flaws.

I mean look at the new NIN skills, is that what you want? 2 abilities that don't increase "output" whatsoever? That aren't even attacks?

They still add utility to the job aside from sheer damage, which is more than what can be said for Wheeling Thrust, as it does absolutely nothing that F&C didn't already. Plus, if those NIN skills aren't useful to you for a given situation, you still have the option of just plain not using them, and it will not negatively impact your damage output at all.

I can't think of any other job that got something entirely pointless (or worse, outright detrimental) in their post-50 kit besides DRG. Sure, almost every DPS got at least one thing that made their rotations more complex, but all of those things at least positively affected their output once added to the kit and employed properly.

[whiskeybravo]

It's also irrelevant to the main point, as just because a job has good performance in gameplay doesn't mean it can't still have blatant design flaws.

Doesn't good (if not top) performance contradict your opinion of a design flaw? By definition a flawed design would not perform well.

This is all crying over spilled milk. The ability is there, it is what it is, I highly doubt SE will go back and change it and certainly hope that they don't. If you don't like complexity then play another job like PLD. Your opinion is just that. The facts are DRGs is performing very well and are wanted in all raid groups. The facts are serious DRG are working on optimizing their output with the skills given to them, not complaining about what level a certain ability is unlocked or that the ability in and of itself does not increase output.

I can't think of any other job that got something entirely pointless (or worse, outright detrimental) in their post-50 kit besides DRG.

It's actually not detrimental in the slightest according to simple maths.

Rotation without BotD:
170+180+200+250+180+150+200+360+150+200+360 = 218 pot/gcd

Rotation w/ BotD ignoring positional F&C/WT:
170+180+200+250+200+180+150+200+360+200 = 209 pot/GCD

BUT - you get GK and boosted Jump/SSD
(assuming required 2.4 sec gcd)
Jump 200 pot * 1.3 = 260 - 200 = 60 pot / 12.5 gcd
SSD 180 pot * 1.3 = 234 - 180 = 54 pot / 25 gcd
60+60+54 = 174 / 25 gcd = 6.96 pot / gcd
GK 200 pot * 3 times per min / 25 gcd = 24 pot / gcd
24+6.96 = 30.96 pot / gcd

So 209 + 30.96 = 239.96 pot / gcd

It's actually still a boost. Not detrimental like you seem to believe. And really this math is a bit generous because why would you purposely avoid 2 positionals? If you just stood at the flank or rear you're bound to hit the right one every now and then, would be just as much work to purposely avoid each one as it would be to hit them.

[Neyka]

I kind of wish that when you learn F&C at 56, it would only proc 50% of the time. That way when you hit 58, you'd be excited that you'd have a 100% reliable way of extending botd.