The one consistent critic on Heavensward is "too much like ARR"? srsly?

[StrejdaTom]

Snip

But the pace of getting obsolete is in hands of SE. They could easily slow things down, instead they implemented 80 ilvls jump in 1 expansion 130 - 210.

[Hyrist]

The problem with vertical progression is that it makes old content obsolete way to fast. On top of that there is nothing special with the gear. No special traits to earn from spirit bonding the tome gear. Which leads to another thing why are the job classes so cookie cutter. Why do we not have role trees for each job like bow can either be a ranger (pure dps) or a brd? And based on the skills you choose will change your role drastically. It's crappy lazy design with nothing to really work for.

These are questions already answered before but I'll go over them.

Special chararactistics are kept out of gear because all that it contributes to is stat inflation. Everything boils down to DPS and if you create special stats then you're just adding to the factors into DPS. In a vertical progression MMO, you begin to invalidate gear before you even create it because gear with "Special Stat X" is better than the gear you created in the following patch ,because of that special stat, unless you increase the base stats to compensate on it. Then you deal with the major issue of Power Creep.

In short, special stats are a design nightmare. They do nothing more to the bottom line than complicate things, for the player and developer both. They've heard feedback regarding the desire for it and have said they'd 'consider' it. But keep in mind consider is not accept. They've carried the same speech on this since Beta. I'm not expecting it to change soon.

"Why not skill trees?" most common answer comes from both the player base and the developers in tandeum. In short, you don't have skill trees because you don't NEED skill trees. In game you are not locked down to a certain Job and each job approaches the base role differently. In this case, if you wanted to lean more on the DPS end of Ranged, you'd go Machinist. This is the trade off for the Job/Armory system. You get to pick multiple classes, as many as you want to level and gear really, but each are played optimally one way.

They don't want to complicate the roles of each Job - that goes directly against the ease-of-access approach they have for this game. We may, eventually, see something similar to a 'merit' system like they created for Final Fantasy XI, but that system was not mean to be easily exchangeable.

It's not lazy design - it was an intentional choice made to adhere to the sense of identity that comes with being a part of the Final Fantasy franchise, no only do they want to keep that identity, but they're wanting it to be easier for the new players coming in, to pick up and play.

This esoteric gear will be outdated by 3.2ish and we really gain nothing for our job other than a few boosted stats.

That will never change. That's what a vertical progression MMO means. It means you're never at the top. There's always higher to go, and the gear that does not add up to par will fall into the field of Glamour usage. If that's make or break for you, do not come back - because that's a part of this game's backbone - and you shouldn't expect it to change at this point.

[Astral145]

Seriously? You honestly believe that gaining new traits and skills from gear after reaching lvl 60 is a nightmare? If anything it gives you more choices as to what skills you want and as long as the gear is on a horizontal progression you can always go back and get other skills and traits for your specific role with out feeling like you are hurting the group with progression. As it was in 2.0 and is now all you get is better or higher stats with each upgrade you get. Then it gets replaced within a few major patches and all you gain is more stats and a new glamour... nothing else is new. There is no reason that we cant get new traits that enhance our skills that will allow us to be even better at our role or allow us to choose a different role to play with the same job.

[Hyrist]

Seriously? You honestly believe that gaining new traits and skills from gear after reaching lvl 60 is a nightmare? If anything it gives you more choices as to what skills you want and as long as the gear is on a horizontal progression you can always go back and get other skills and traits for your specific role with out feeling like you are hurting the group with progression. As it was in 2.0 and is now all you get is better or higher stats with each upgrade you get. Then it gets replaced within a few major patches and all you gain is more stats and a new glamour... nothing else is new. There is no reason that we cant get new traits that enhance our skills that will allow us to be even better at our role or allow us to choose a different role to play with the same job.

We're not on horizontal progression though We're in vertical. The reasons were already provided. They don't want this game getting too complicated. They want choice to feel optional, not mandatory. With skill trees, you're always going to wind up with one skill tree falling behind the others, then what's the point? You say swap the skill trees, they say 'why bother putting the swap mechanic in the first place if it's only going to be swapped OUT of next time it's not flavor of the patch best?" Instead, they give you a skillset that's effective all the time, and many different jobs to chose from for concepts of choices and styles.

This way, they can also build more quests, stories, backgrounds, and give you incentive to go level multiple jobs, keeping parts of old content valid, giving multiple reasons for mid-tier content like the 24 man raid and it keeps the diversity and balances of the jobs in better check. Gear Piece A does not break Spec B and so forth.

Hey, I'm not telling you that you have to agree with it. I'm telling you what is the reasoning provided and the decisions that are hard set. You're not changing anything by complaining. I can sympathize with the viewpoint but you're wasting your breath. I'm not the one you're arguing with here - SE is, and it's a debate they've already closed.

[Dererk]

Which leads to another thing why are the job classes so cookie cutter. Why do we not have role trees for each job like bow can either be a ranger (pure dps) or a brd? And based on the skills you choose will change your role drastically. It's crappy lazy design with nothing to really work for. This esoteric gear will be outdated by 3.2ish and we really gain nothing for our job other than a few boosted stats. Its sad but I feel like I wasted $40 dollars on buying this expansion.

Lets not go into the whole skill tree thing it was already stated that it be hard to put something like that in because of unbalance they'd like too but won't happen. And people already said that even if this was put in people would only look up the best set up online and stay with that.


The main problem is we have no open world end game things ( do not even start people fates once you hit level cap become pointless treasure hunts aren't fun and do not even get me started on hunts the mindless zergs) So far the only open world stuff catters to crafters and gathers. And they need to stop looking into ways of getting vets into old content in tired of being forced to help people clear stuff for things like relics don't get me wrong I do not regret building my relic from 2.0-2.55 but I should not have to ( no one should have to) suffer threw another 1000 Garuda light farms and the like ever again.

[Meya]

But the pace of getting obsolete is in hands of SE. They could easily slow things down, instead they implemented 80 ilvls jump in 1 expansion 130 - 210.

So is your complaint that you got to much content? Items? WTF?

[Hyrist]

You'll never get them to stop forcing players to do old content and help newbies. They're far too altruistic for that. And altruism is a theme in this game. I chuckle every time they make a mechanic that forces it cause even though I get frustrated by bad pugs, tend to lean more altruist myself - and I'm a bit of a sadist when it comes to wanting to make people help others - so the Dev Team's thoughts and Mine are aligned in this bit, except for the sadism part - that's all me.

I would not mind more endgame in the open field, but I've got to stress that "Open World" does not mean competition. Force-pop mobs that bind to your duty or bust, I say.

And the trainwreck that was hunts? That was the Playerbase's idea - the last time they screamed for true open world content. I'm hoping we learn our lesson this time and ask for semi-instanced.

[Ayanno]

EDIT: Messed up somewhere, this post is in direct response to Hyrist.

You know, I wasn't actually going to respond to this, as it simply doesn't warrant a response. But....screw it, let's do this for the giggles. I'll break it down by numbers, just because I damned well can:

#1- Raids? I have no interest in doing raids, I don't even have t9 cleared. The rest of the game is what's of interest to me. I have mentioned dungeons, how they follow the same format each time. I have mentioned Temple Leves, how the only difference between HW leves and ARR leves is....the ability to use 10 allowances at once. I have talked about how Hunts were a disaster upon release in 2.3, even mentioning SE's attempt at fixing them. So, why were Hunts brought into HW in the same mucked up state they initially were, why did SE not implement some of the adjustments they made to the initial ARR Hunts?. These are not subjective, these are facts.

#2- At no point have I said anything to anyone that is disrespectful. You flat out stated the "lowest common denominator" towards me, and my views. You took offense to a phrase that has been around for decades, while at the same time throwing "lowest common denominator" in my direction, and you talk to ME about disrespect? The phrase "a new coat of paint" is not disrespectful AT ALL, it is a description. "lowest common denominator" is a disrespectful comment to say to someone. Which of us said which phrase, again? Do. Not. Talk to me about respect when you use that in the same post. This is not subjective, either. There is nothing about the phrase "a new coat of paint" that gives ANY disrespect to you, or anyone else's views. Using that to pull "he disrespect's SE's work!" is doing nothing but putting words in my mouth.

#3- Dismissal? Not dissecting the work done? Really now? I have, repeatedly, given examples of how 3.0 content is using the same format, with very different visuals, for damn near everything. That FATE outside Limsa? Same as that FATE outside Idylshire. That Leve? Same as that Temple Leve, only you now have the option of using 10 allowances at once. That dungeon? Same as every other dungeon. Trash > Boss1, Trash > Boss2, Trash > Boss3. That is dissecting what's been put in front of me. My issue, which I have repeatedly stated, to you and others, is that SE didn't even try to come up with a variance on anything they brought out. Why is every FATE/Leve/dungeon/hunt/Raid all the same? Why didn't they give us something, even SLIGHTLY varied? Why didn't they make the dungeons have branching paths? A small adjustment, but it would provide something unique to the Heavensward dungeons, other than their visual presentation. We didn't even get that much. This is not subjective, this is fact. Using a vehicle in one single encounter does not make for a varied raid experience.

#.....oh hell, I'll just respond to what ever. This is turning into a novel.

I have never stated XI's grind wasn't bigger then XIV's. I've also repeatedly stated that I have no issues with the grind. I compared Nyzul Isle with Dynamis to show that, while the battle mechanics may be similar, the actual raid is formatted differently, and you take a different path to the goal. The goal being whatever shiny your doing the content for. Yes, Nyzul is one zone. That was to save assets, since the thing randomly chose the layout of each floor as you went. Having it be one zone that changes it's layout is a space saver, nothing more. Using that as an argument is foolish. The objectives you needed to complete per floor, as well as the locations of bosses, sub bosses, was very different from Dynamis. This was the point of the comparison. To show the varied way to obtain the carrot that was implemented in the same game, with the same battle mechanics, by the same company that makes XIV You are still grinding for that carrot, you are still doing similar battles from one to the other, but how you actually get there is different. If you cannot see the difference in gameplay between Dynamis and Nyzul, then this entire attempt at a conversation is pointless.

XIV....there is no variance besides visuals. Unique battle mechanics cannot be used to ignore the fact that the journey to the carrot is the same as it as before. You are still farming the same dungeons for a different colored Tomestone, with a different name, now as you were in 2.0. Those dungeons still follow the same path to the exit. This is not subjective, this is fact.

I gave an example earlier in this thread on a different method to obtain Tomestones. It's there if anyone wants to see it, couple pages back I suppose by now.

[StrejdaTom]

So is your complaint that you got to much content? Items? WTF?

Too much content? No. My complaint is no variety in content.
Skill trees, equipment with different passive bonuses etc. There has been already enough feedback about additions like this.
We don't need more stats or ilvl. We need more options to chose from. Doesn't really matter if they add new items if it makes the old ones obsolete. In that way I can say we never have more or less content, we have the same amount of content that is viable.

XIV....there is no variance besides visuals. Unique battle mechanics cannot be used to ignore the fact that the journey to the carrot is the same as it as before. You are still farming the same dungeons for a different colored Tomestone, with a different name, now as you were in 2.0. Those dungeons still follow the same path to the exit. This is not subjective, this is fact.

I gave an example earlier in this thread on a different method to obtain Tomestones. It's there if anyone wants to see it, couple pages back I suppose by now.

Exactly my opinion.

[Meya]

Too much content? No. My complaint is no variety in content.
Skill trees, equipment with different passive bonuses etc. There has been already enough feedback about additions like this.
We don't need more stats or ilvl. We need more options to chose from. Doesn't really matter if they add new items if it makes the old ones obsolete. In that way I can say we never have more or less content, we have the same amount of content that is viable.

Could say that however your harddrive says different.