The one consistent critic on Heavensward is "too much like ARR"? srsly?

[Hyrist]

Also, Hyrist, please don't think I am attacking you personally, as that is not my intent. I am merely trying to have a discussion about the current state of the game. Nothing more.

Then please watch your writing tone. Terms like 'amused' and I quote:

....vehicles....cannot believe you attempted that. *snort* Just...wow.

Leaves nothing in terms of respect for you or your argument.

In fact, every one of your posts in this thread oozes a tone of disrespect and general bile for the developer cycle that I've come to expect from the lowest intellectual common denominator, and the actual CONTENT of your arguments aren't providing much to dispel that, even as you try to dismiss and deny my rebuttals, by which your assessment intelligence should know the intention behind. For example, the Vehicle comment was a highlight to note that the fight mechanics for each fight, regardless if it's Coil, or if it's Alexander plays out differently. The point was that the fights themselves carry the weight and stand alone as different enough to remain entertaining for me. The premise of these Raids do not need to change, in this regard. I feel as if variance is better suited in new systems.


You seem to have no understanding how much work goes into that 'coat of paint' you keep referencing. There was a hell of a lot more work than what you guys are giving credit for, And that's where I'm taking offense.

Now with that out of the way...

I've no problem, zero problem at all, for asking for more variety. Doing it to the tone of insults or making BS comparisons to games that did MUCH MUCH less comparatively incites a violent level of disgust in me. As I have stated previously, my biggest problem with this game is not mechanical. The Developers do their job and do it well - but let's keep in mind we're asking for more when we've already gotten more, even if it is 'more of the same'. That means the same amount of work and care went into it.

I have zero problem with the current endgame format, being released as is. In fact, I would call it a refinement over the original. The token system takes out some of the bad in it for me. The system that separated Savage and Story from the start was a highly intelligent move that provides an easier entry for those who are attempting to get into endgame (Yey for a mechanics preview). And the fights thus far from what I've seen has provided endgame groups with enough challenge to not simply be dominated with ease, providing the challenge they want. Does it really matter that it runs the same format as Coil?

Not to me, speaking purely for myself. It's reminiscent of every Megaman game ever made - and is my favorite comparison of late. I don't care if the 8 robot masters in Megaman (X)4 amounted to the same sort of "Jump, (Wall-jump,) Dash/Slide, Shoot" Mechanics. Most of them were flat out single lines to boss too. (Some variance in later iterations.) I take much the same approach and I'm much happier for it.

That said I've no problem asking for a wider variety of endgame. I want it too. Let's not mistake that. But don't belittle the work done just because it wasn't done the way you want it. That's just plain disrespectful. I'm paintent enough to wait on more variance in PvE content. Perhaps because I've realize that there's already variance in content provided now - if you're the type to delve into PvP (though it still has some really frustrating problems). They did get a new mode and map.

My issue with FFXI comparisons? We're no where near the same development method and path of FFXIV. We can't be, the entire game premise is too different. It's just entirely too different of games. Would I enjoy it if they made a Nyzul-Isle like endgame. Absolutely! That was fun, (in spite of it actually being only 1 map with different walls, with reused mob assets, randomized, with the same 5 or so random objectives - let's be fair, we can't knock Alexander without knocking Nyzule.)

I don't think we can install much variance in the 8 and 24 man Raids as they are. Honestly Endgame deserves more options, not just differing content. The thing that sets me off a bit is that they have a way of making other parts of the game we already have, such as Hunts and Treasure Hunts, relevant to endgame - by making Epic Hunts - it would be easy to design a system similar to the ENM days and tie it to relevant gear, programming wise too as they already have the Duty-Bound Semi-instance and plenty of room in the Expansion Zones to host them.

I'll concede that 3.0, specifically Alexander, did not try to vary the formula. But the point I wish to impress is that while they did not try to innovate, they did try to refine, and I feel they met some success in that manner.

In this stage of the development, it is my expectation that we may receive a new variance of Endgame progression about partway through the 3.X saga. Where is difficult as new systems are design nightmares when it comes to stamping out all the bugs and making sure it's all balanced. But if we follow similar iterations, we're talking mid 3.2. However I'm not hanging any hopes on that.

And, as a legacy player that's supported this game from launch until now. I do not subscribe to the idea that 1.0 is to be counted into the development cycle. If we did, it means we would have to count ARR as an expansion, and that Crystal Tower and Coils, as part of an Expansion. If we're to count that against FFXI as far as development variance, then it can't even compete. FFXI never reset its game. It never needed to. ARR is a hard reset for me.

Sidenote: I like your objectives system. It would work well in addition to the systems we currently have. Though I would like more varied ways besides waiting 4-5 Months for the next 24 man to come out to be able to upgrade Esoterics. Perhaps some due diligance on your objective system could provide an answer to that?

What I would really like is some controlled method of engaging powerful monsters in the open field with a party for gear that could match 8 Man raids. Even if that system is somewhat slower. Right now, the A and S rank hunts are far too chaotic, especially on populated servers.

[Ayanno]

I....I....don't know even where to begin. /sigh Ok, let's just go point by point here, excuse the horrible format this post is probably going to take.

First off, I use the word "amused" instead of "slamming my face into my desk" at people's willingness to accept being charged their hard earned money for...very little in the way of actual new content. Not just here, but every where. I have to laugh, or I'll cry from it. Now, I asked you what was it that Alexander does differently then Coil, it's predecessor. Your response was " a vehicle". Hey? You realize that's like saying "Blighted Bouquet" is what makes SCoB different from BCoB, right? A single mechanic in a fight does not make the raid different. I even stated previously that any games battle engine(read: fight mechanics) will remain similar from fight to fight. This is just obvious. Hence....the *snort*. Or, you know, /shakeshead.

I have not disrespected anyone, nor have I made a comment about anyone's intelligence. "Lowest common denominator" was directed at me, do not try to say it was not. I have even stated that I meant no ill intent in my posts, because I knew that some could, possibly, interpret it as such. And here you are, with the first chunk of that wall putting me on blast.

I do actually have an understanding of how much work is put into developing a game, or movie, or any other body of work. However, just because someone worked their asses off, does not mean there isn't parts of it that warrant criticism. If you have never busted your ass at work, only to see yer boss criticize something you forgot/didn't do, then you are very lucky in the bosses you've worked for. SE didn't add anything of weight new to the game. They kept the exact same format we've been following for years. They didn't do something to make players forget the endless tomestone grind is in fact a grind. They simply gave us the same grind, with a new look. A different coat of paint. That statement doesn't mean I am disrespecting the work.

My only comment to the rest of that wall is in regards to Nyzul being compared to Alexander, and your bringing up of how the floors of Nyzul were all the same as before, just moved around a bit. Well, yes, all floors of Nyzul had the same visual style as the previous, as that fit the theme, visually, of the entire thing. Nyzul does not look like Sky. It does not look like Sea. I expect Alexander to have the same steampunk style seen in the first four floors for the entire raid series. Just like I expect the same visual style the Allagans have for everything. It's the style used, the theme of the content.

The key difference you are missing is that, Nyzul not only looked different from Dynamis, it played differently. You took a different path to the goal. In XIV, The only difference between Alexander and Coil, is the visual style. Four turns, meet 4 floors. Trash followed by a boss, meet trash followed by a boss. Or how about dungeons? Trash > 1st boss, Trash, 2nd boss, Trash > Last boss (END) In XIV, they all look different, even have some twists in the combat here and there, but the path you take to the finish remains the same.

Or, in other words, a new coat of paint.

[Aezelas]

Some people here seem to assume they wont add new things into HW before the next expansion

They are going to have major patches for HW between the HW release and the next expansion and I can definitely see them easing it into really new stuff during this time rather than everything right at once at the beginning of HW. That doesnt really seem to be how they do things with this game

New tomes every 3.x patches. Yay! Exciting much.

[Fendred]

I think your chief criticism is a general misunderstanding of what others have been complaining about. There are the three general categories of criticism towards FFXIV:ARR, in my opinion:
1. Criticism that the game took an entirely different direction than what was originally promised (See "Star Wars: Galaxies" for more information).
2. Criticism of FFXIV:ARR's place in the MMORPG genre as a whole. Generally these are complaints about how homogenized the genre has become, and how corporate interference and uninformed developers have perpetuated the current state of affairs. They want FFXIV:ARR to strike out and be different even though that is not Yoshida's intention.
3. Criticism of the game's systems within the context of current player experience and expectations. These range from anything like whether the game is encouraging people to play together in a positive way to end game balancing.

Number 1 sounds very similar to what you are getting at, but it really isn't the same thing. Those individuals do not want FFXIV 1.0. They simply wanted a finished product that fixes its deficiencies as opposed to an entirely altered product. It's basically a Star Wars: Galaxies situation for those individuals.

[StrejdaTom]

Well I can kinda relate to this critic.
Heavensward brought absolutely no new mechanics. I didn't expect different game, but all we got is new raid, dungeons, fates, hunts.. etc. Except flying there is absolutely nothing new.
I would like to see some inovative new content, not reskinned old stuff.

[Allistar]

IMO iirc, yoshi stated that they did what they did with ARR because of time constraints and whatnot, so they built upon what was already in the game. But now with the expansion whats the excuse for doing the exact same thing, with ARR it different from 1.0 so we readily accepted it, but only because we had it to compare against 1.0. Whats the reason for HW being the same way, I do think HW is a good expansion, not great, it does a lot of nice things, introduces of lot of things (both good and bad). But in the end it is really just more of the same.

[AlexionSkylark]

OK, so there's another trend of complainers: people who didn't really like the endgame on ARR and were hopeful the expansion would bring them a new type of endgame.

Problem is it just so happens that plenty of people LIKED the endgame on ARR.

[Ayanno]

OK, so there's another trend of complainers: people who didn't really like the endgame on ARR and were hopeful the expansion would bring them a new type of endgame.

Problem is it just so happens that plenty of people LIKED the endgame on ARR.

This is not even remotely what I've been saying.

[Hyrist]

I....I....don't know even where to begin. /sigh Ok, let's just go point by point here, excuse the horrible format this post is probably going to take.

First off, I use the word "amused" instead of "slamming my face into my desk" at people's willingness to accept being charged their hard earned money for...very little in the way of actual new content. Not just here, but every where. I have to laugh, or I'll cry from it. Now, I asked you what was it that Alexander does differently then Coil, it's predecessor. Your response was " a vehicle". Hey? You realize that's like saying "Blighted Bouquet" is what makes SCoB different from BCoB, right? A single mechanic in a fight does not make the raid different. I even stated previously that any games battle engine(read: fight mechanics) will remain similar from fight to fight. This is just obvious. Hence....the *snort*. Or, you know, /shakeshead.

This is entirely a subjective argument. First of "hard earned money" and you list only Raid content as the marker for that. This completely ignores everything else in the game, and that forces ME to shake my head. I do have to ask you what you are paying for. If raiding is your only expectation, please, for your own sake, unsubscribe - because there is so much more to this game than raiding. As far as the Raids themselves. Again, in the field of subjective arguments, the fights hold the weight of difference, to me, personally, subjectively. Let’s just acknowledge that your argument is subjective, if popular, and move on.

I have not disrespected anyone.

Remember about that part of being subjective - intent and reception are both a part of what makes respect. I told you to please watch your tone, and told you how it was being received. If you've got a problem with that, direct your posts at someone else.

I do actually have an understanding of how much work is put into developing a game, or movie, or any other body of work. However, just because someone worked their asses off, does not mean there isn't parts of it that warrant criticism.

There's a difference between criticism and dismissal. Your writing tone simply parrots that of others which dismisses the work done. It doesn't criticize it. Criticizing it actually dissects the work done. You do not. Instead you list the formatting of the encounters in the most general sense. I have to ask you if you think all classic rock music is the same because it shares the same underlying beat. Following your logic, you would say it does with a ‘different coat of chords’ to parody your statement.

If you have never busted your ass at work, only to see yer boss criticize something you forgot/didn't do, then you are very lucky in the bosses you've worked for. SE didn't add anything of weight new to the game.

New (large) story, new environments, refinements of the current systems (Leves, Hunts, Treasure Hunts, Ex Primals, 8 Main Raid Story and Savage mode Separations), new mount system. New PVP Map with accommodating mode all say hi. “Weight” is again subjective. There’s plenty of meat to bite into here.

They kept the exact same format we've been following for years. They didn't do something to make players forget the endless tomestone grind is in fact a grind.

That's a design decision, one they told you up front in interviews. The uninformed are the ones with buyer's remorse.

They simply gave us the same grind, with a new look. A different coat of paint. That statement doesn't mean I am disrespecting the work.

Yes, actually it is. I am informing you that such a generalization is in fact donative of disrespect in multiple cultures, desensitisation to this under the guise of ‘criticism’ does not change this fact.

My only comment to the rest of that wall is in regards to Nyzul being compared to Alexander, and your bringing up of how the floors of Nyzul were all the same as before, just moved around a bit. Well, yes, all floors of Nyzul had the same visual style as the previous, as that fit the theme, visually, of the entire thing.

No, see literally this is why I say you have no concept of design. Nyzul Isle is ONE MAP. It is literally a zone that has randomly spawning walls and walled off locations that dice the map into random formats that make it seems like you're going into new areas. It's not thematic. It literally is one 'zone'.

Nyzul does not look like Sky. It does not look like Sea. I expect Alexander to have the same steampunk style seen in the first four floors for the entire raid series. Just like I expect the same visual style the Allagans have for everything. It's the style used, the theme of the content.

In Nyzul Isle. They designed one Map, and then set you in different points of the map. It has nothing to do with "Theme." If I was going to argue theme, I would say that Salvage and Nyzul Isle have the same "Theme." No, the ENTIRETY of Nyzul Isle, is just one map, and you're being shuffled through random parts of, with some walls alternating. All 200 floors (including the late-generation update) are designed that way.

Similarly, Dynamis is copy-pasta direct from other Zones, with very little modification. You could say that copying these zones is the actual “Theme.” Of Dynamis, though Abyssea shares the same concept.

The key difference you are missing is that, Nyzul not only looked different from Dynamis, it played differently.

No, the key difference is that I never drew a correlation between Nyzul Isle and Dynamis mechanically. You are. And you keep doing it when I'm comparing Dynamis to Einherjar, that plays much the same to Dynamis. And Walk of Echos, which also plays similarly to the previous two with small variations.

The same variations that I would justify the existence of Einjherjar and Walk of Echoes, is the same defense I take for Alexander and the coming 24 man raid: Content should be judged encounter-to-encounter, not by the overarching format.

You took a different path to the goal.

What goal? Advancement in FFXI Was horizontal. You went to Dynamis for Dynamis gear, you went to Nyzule Isle for Nyzule Isle gear and rarely did they ever conflict or substitute, because you swapped in different gear at different moments of what you were doing. You really weren't looking for alternative sets, so much as padding out and expanding your current ones.

And you didn't do one, you did both - because you had to. Dynamis, Salvage, Nyzul, all of them suffered from abysmally low droprates that inflated the lifespan of the content unnecessarily. You did Dynamis one day a week, and Nyzule another day a week because you HAD TO. Four years of Dynamis and most RDMs still didn't have their Duelist's Chapeau.

Don't you dare try to argue that FFXI content wasn't a grind. It was a far worse grind that FFXIV will ever be. But in the years of its prime day that grind grew wider until people were able to just neglect certain content.

Here, in FFXIV, you cannot gear swap, therefore there is one best set, that will be determined somewhere between Upgraded Esoterics, and Alexander Savage gear for the next six months (a projection). And guess what, Alexander Savage, drops the Esoterics upgrade. We can argue that it needs more variance. I'm ok with that, but when it comes to gearing, FFXIV has FFXI beat in terms of keeping the inflation down.

The trade off? Gear continually becomes Obsolete. Catch 22 there.

In XIV, The only difference between Alexander and Coil, is the visual style.

And the fights themselves, which you continually fail to acknowledge.

Four turns, meet 4 floors. Trash followed by a boss, meet trash followed by a boss.

Each with different mechanics, different variations of how to handle mechanics. Twintania is not Manipulator, not even close. You handle each of these bosses differently. You're arguing that this not new at all, but it is. You're overgeneralizing because you’re focusing on the format of the Raid, which you want to change. What I am arguing with you, subjectively, is that the fights themselves carry the weight of that lack of format difference and should be weighed individually. As far as having a different format that should be handled by a new system, which you've already acknowledged takes time.

So the question is, what sort of new system do we want to see?

Or how about dungeons? Trash > 1st boss, Trash, 2nd boss, Trash > Last boss (END) In XIV, they all look different, even have some twists in the combat here and there, but the path you take to the finish remains the same.

Same argument as above. It's the Nuances that makes theses fights worthwhile. Repetition, however, will make anything boring over time. Burnout among some however seems quicker and I would like to see them add different systems because of it. Not just variant content, mind you. But an entirely different basis of approach.

Or, in other words, a new coat of paint.

"You were far better off extrapolating your expectations than defending your wordage. I like the ideas you are coming up with - focus on those. Don’t try to defend a manner of speech that’s coming off as offensive, regardless of whether or not you feel it’s that way.You should work on changing the way you describe things, pointing out the specifics of a problem, such as the formatting you listed, rather than relying on shorthand buzzwords such as “fresh coat of paint.”

There’s work that needs to be done in acknowledging the point of your debate opponent, but I acknowledge that’s something I similarly need to work on. That said I feel as if we'd make better progress in this discussion if it were to advance beyond reviewing the same statements over again and just focus on ideas, as stated above."
(There, there's an example of good constructive criticism for you.)

And a final aside: I do get weighed in on by my boss when I mess up, but my boss is intelligent enough to point out the things done right, and specify the things going wrong without generalizing. It's what makes him a good boss. And my business's owner does much the same, actually going as far to express reasoning in his intent and acknowledging feedback on both sides. If your bosses do differently, I feel sorry for your work experience.

[Astral145]

Well yes I was hoping for some things to be new considering that the expansion cost almost as much as a new game. To me the expansion felt like a patch update. The story was not to shabby defiantly better than 2.0 but not 0.0 eye popping excitement. The biggest disappointments were 3.0 gathering/crafting and gear progression. I don't mind tomes being capped but at the same time its the same dang vertical progression we had in 2.0 which I hated then as well.

The problem with vertical progression is that it makes old content obsolete way to fast. On top of that there is nothing special with the gear. No special traits to earn from spirit bonding the tome gear. Which leads to another thing why are the job classes so cookie cutter. Why do we not have role trees for each job like bow can either be a ranger (pure dps) or a brd? And based on the skills you choose will change your role drastically. It's crappy lazy design with nothing to really work for. This esoteric gear will be outdated by 3.2ish and we really gain nothing for our job other than a few boosted stats. Its sad but I feel like I wasted $40 dollars on buying this expansion.