Goring Blade Pointless?

[SirTaint]

snip

Goring as a stand alone would of course be amazing. Royal after Riot wouldn't be so hot because of enmity concerns but if they did put Goring at 540 pot as a stand alone I'd be willing to work around Royals low hate.

Clemency is a 3 second cast and gets interrupted, its a terrible MT/Oh shit tool. Maybe if your healers are just terrible you could find a use for it, but I haven't seen a single place we should use it. As an OT its castable but what are you healers doing? They have far better tools available and in the case of a tank buster they will have their rotation mapped out already. (and it won't involve a OT who should be DPSing instead) If the healers do require the OT to cast it should be SS.

Clemency should be a GCD cast. (ex Regen) Its instant or close to instant but cost you a GCD, it could even reset combos or be 50% potency. Anything would make it better then a 3 second cast.

DV is decent, but a huge improvement would be the shield hitting the PLD. Again its a bandaid since nothing will ever require it. If it hit the PLD then it could be used in a rotation. Instead the healers already have a rotation for any big raid AoEs. (they have to)

[Faytte]

Oh thank god you actually know how to play then.

I do fully agree it should have been an independent skill a la scoruge or such, but it at least has 40 more potency over other DoTs to compensate for this.

Agreed, Goring Blade being its own ability would have been better, and then put in something else after riot blade would have been great. Personally
1) I would have put Royal Authority in after Riot Blade--solidifying it as a damage combo through and through, an add a attack speed buff to royal authority that lasts for 15 seconds.
2) I would have put a new ability in after Savage Blade that gave a paladin a temporary Damage Shield (10 seconds or until consumed) based off damage dealt, potency 260. Shield not effected by Shield Oath Damage penalty.
3) Shield Swipe would be 180 potency, no pacification, but OGCD and Free, keeping its extra enmity and gaining a 'block chance' increase for 10 seconds. Add a 15 second CD.
4) Clemency would have been a GCD and not a spell, ala flash. Otherwise, remain the same.
5) Rage of Halone: Enmity Increase
6) Circle of Scorn: Lower CD to 15 seconds
7) Divine Veil: Does not need an external trigger. Effects the Paladin.
8) Bulwark: Reduce effect from 60% to 40%. Reduce CD from 180 seconds to 60 seconds.
9) Iron Will/Tempered Will (I'm at work--anti knock back, bind etc): Effects Paladin and all allies within 10 yalms.

[GeekMatt]

PLDs everywhere: "We want a heal! Give us a heal! We crossclass CNJ and should have a heal!"

SE: "here you go, it's a bit costly but it's basically a Cure II which is pretty badass"

PLDs everywhere: "Yaaaaayyyyyy" \o/

*cast interupted*

PLDs everywhere: "SE Y U DU DIS"

really though, I get casts off as MT frequently (read: usually/most of the time). It's not your typical "oh shit" button because it's not that last second clutch move--it's a move that keeps things running when your healer died, or when someone just accepted a raise but the healers are ignoring them in preparation for raid damage. I've used it mostly as a precast when I see someone in danger/about to take damage, and the healer's clearly focused elsewhere.

[Faytte]

Goring as a stand alone would of course be amazing. Royal after Riot wouldn't be so hot because of enmity concerns but if they did put Goring at 540 pot as a stand alone I'd be willing to work around Royals low hate.

Clemency is a 3 second cast and gets interrupted, its a terrible MT/Oh shit tool. Maybe if your healers are just terrible you could find a use for it, but I haven't seen a single place we should use it. As an OT its castable but what are you healers doing? They have far better tools available and in the case of a tank buster they will have their rotation mapped out already. (and it won't involve a OT who should be DPSing instead) If the healers do require the OT to cast it should be SS.

Clemency should be a GCD cast. (ex Regen) Its instant or close to instant but cost you a GCD, it could even reset combos or be 50% potency. Anything would make it better then a 3 second cast.

Basically this. All the things paladins got in heavensward come with a but.

HEY YOU GOT AWESOME DAMAGE COMBOS....but cause your base potencies and damage are crap, you cant hold enmity without rage spam.
HEY YOU GOT AN AWESOME DAMAGE SHIELD FOR THE GROUP...but you cant just proc it when needed and it doesnt effect you.
HEY YOU GOT AN AWESOME HEAL.....that is insanely slow, interruptable, stops you from defending yourself. Even as an OT you will be hard pressed to use it cause 3 seconds is an eternity to healers that are ontop of things.
HEY YOU GOT AN AUTO BLOCK.....and we just changed all the busters to be magic damage and thus not blockabale.

Honestly, this is why I shelved my Paladin entirely. Even small buffs wont fix them---and its no wonder the A3 clear required moving a paladin to a dark knight--their damage is really just too low, and its not like they needed any of the paladins tools to clear it.

[Brightsayge]

Basically this. All the things paladins got in heavensward come with a but...

Honestly, this is why I shelved my Paladin entirely. Even small buffs wont fix them---and its no wonder the A3 clear required moving a paladin to a dark knight--their damage is really just too low, and its not like they needed any of the paladins tools to clear it.

yup, they gave paladins all this "utility" but its not really raid relevant. You can take any other tank class with a higher dps and not suffer.

[Edewen]

snip

1. utter BS. With some str accessories, I would say about 50 seconds into any boss fight, i dotn even need RoH at all.
2. Who cares if it affects you as you have the most survivability. This is something to put up that protects the weak. Very paladin-ish
3. True, even as OT you shouldnt be using this when there is something to hit. But there are times when there is nothing to hit where it comes in handy. not every ability needs to be godlike.
4. Cant argue this one. Kinda of dead on accurate.

As for dps, i dont think it is a fair trade off to make paladins unable to compete simply based on a bunch of mitigation tools that aren't needed for the class at this point. Conv, awareness, bloodbath, foresight. Hell even shelltron in its current application are all things we can live without easily. Just let us be competitive with equal geared tanks on the dps front.

[Riamu]

As I said at the start of this post, in terms of practical use Royal Authority has more of a place after Riot Blade then Goring Blade as it makes sense for a Paladin Damage Combo, the other being the Enmity Combo and use Goring Blade as a stand alone DoT skill like the other 2 tanks DoT skills.

If you get into a situation where you need mana back and if its off a single target (or even multiple targets) your not gonna finish the Riot combo by reapplying Goring Blade dot over and over, you'd be more inclined to follow it up with a heavy hitting dps finishing move like Royal Authority.

[Faytte]

1. utter BS. With some str accessories, I would say about 50 seconds into any boss fight, i dotn even need RoH at all.
2. Who cares if it affects you as you have the most survivability. This is something to put up that protects the weak. Very paladin-ish
3. True, even as OT you shouldnt be using this when there is something to hit. But there are times when there is nothing to hit where it comes in handy. not every ability needs to be godlike.
4. Cant argue this one. Kinda of dead on accurate.

1. Your dps are bad? Have you gotten past Faust Savage yet? Are you staying in shield oath on Rav EX or, like most tanks, able to keep aggro fine in sword oath from start to finish? I would love to see you post a parse where your able to 'keep aggro the whole time' with your abilities usage and your static dps, cause this sounds like baloney. Not to be offensive (im not trying to be offensive) but in full str accessories against my statics lancer and monk I was struggling (and paladin is not particularly difficult to play). Only when my monk decided on his own to run as a ninja did things get easier and even then, I never enjoyed the closeness of the OT to my threat levels. On my Drk and War? Its an absolute joke.

2. Explain "The most survivable". By the numbers, Warriors have the most uptime on damage reducers and the easiest time stacking them against boss mechanics, unless you are concerned with blocking auto attacks, in which case that is fair I guess---Paladins are the kings of reducing auto attack damage. Oh and hallowed ground--cant forget that gem.

3. Certainly but you would want more out of your level 58 power, would you not? The paladin kit is already quite poor and optimized around tank swapping tank busters where they could shine by stacking their cds. Something like A1 savage absolutely destroys that idea with 2 minute magical tank busters.

4. Ditto =^.^=

Conv, awareness, bloodbath, foresight. Hell even shelltron in its current application are all things we can live without easily. Just let us be competitive with equal geared tanks on the dps front.

Or alternatively

1) Buff our enmity enough to compensate for our bad damage.
2) Make our cooldown traits are more powerful. Given that most of our 'great' cooldowns are shared to all tanks and our traits are largely just slight improvements, it is hardly a reason to give up as much damage, aoe (hahahah) as we do.

Something like making Awarness last longer and reflect critical damage (or counter it with potency) and maybe having over healing while cova is up become a damage shield up to 20% of your health (refreshable while cova is live) are just the sort of things I think they can do to make these cooldowns feel worth their while if Paladins are supposed to be defensive experts. Having some short cooldown answer to ambiguous damage would be quite nice to boot--i remember 'shelltron' in 1.0 worked against magic (although the old name escapes me, but very much the same power).

[Xenosan]

Aegis Boon == 1.0's Sheltron It blocked magical too iirc and recovered hp

imagine if Bulwark recovered TP & MP for each successful block.

instead of Shield Swipe there was Phalanx (did it give a buff?) and also War Drum - an AOE aggro gen that could be used after any block.

edit: Divine Veil and Clemency had 1.0 equivalents. Royal is the only non-1.0 addition unless I'm mistaken (could be). And as strictly a DPS WS - no utility or added effect - it seems sort of an unimaginative choice on SE's part