The one consistent critic on Heavensward is "too much like ARR"? srsly?

[justinjarjar]

People either want FF11/ old school systems (which will not happen in this market or probably ever again) or the next "new" thing (which will not be that big and bigger MMO's like FF14 and WoW will continue with the new wave of MMO's I mean look at FF11 and Everquest). t

While some have pointed out that AAA games have just been rehashes since the early 2000's, many other medias have not had major advances in many more years than we have been seeing some stale repeats in the gaming industry. Try finding major innovation in the block buster industry. Good luck since themes are repeated since the 1970's at least and even some movie chains have been around since the 80's. Let alone movies like the Great Gatsby which have been redone every decade since like the 1950's. Books can be seen in a similar way, most of the best sellers are made by format. People are never good consumers and this has been the case since man probably. The only thing you can do is vote with your dollar (and if you are enough of a minority even that will not matter). Welcome to industries in the end all the question you need to ask (even if you don't want to or care) is how does this make or lose money for the business? Right now not changing majorly is in no way going to lose them money (it is making them more money currently as many have pointed out). So play or don't that is the only choice you have until the devs feel it is a problem or it is losing them money.

Now after that I want better PvP and end game PvP, but that does not seem to be the top of their lists which is fine. (hopefully they get to it).

[Nadirah]

In sandboxes, the playground doesn't change to entertain. Playing with others is where the fun comes from - gameplay ideally suited to MMOs.

With sandboxes, players write the story.

And games with little to no direction are boring as hell.

You want to know what you spent most of your time in EQ doing? Sitting iin one spot killing monsters repeatedly. People remember bullshitting with friends and the rose goggles come out, "oh that was awesome!" When in reality, it was the most simple and boring thing ever.

[Nadirah]

As many things as Blizzard addresses, there are just as many that don't get addressed because "they disagree".

Welcome to real world. You can't please everyone.

And listening to loud, whiny brats is why the game is Facebook and raid with no in between. And why I'm not playing it.

[Bishop81]

And games with little to no direction are boring as hell.

You want to know what you spent most of your time in EQ doing? Sitting iin one spot killing monsters repeatedly. People remember bullshitting with friends and the rose goggles come out, "oh that was awesome!" When in reality, it was the most simple and boring thing ever.

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Eve Online.

I'm not asking for FFXIV to be that sandbox-y nor that "free for all".

Instead just create a sandbox within the theme park. The main story is still SE's to write but let a portion of the game be controlled/lead/driven by players - still regulated by SE of course.

[Seryl199]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Eve Online.

I'm not asking for FFXIV to be that sandbox-y nor that "free for all".

Instead just create a sandbox within the theme park. The main story is still SE's to write but let a portion of the game be controlled/lead/driven by players - still regulated by SE of course.

Could you explain what it means to have a sandbox in an MMO? I've played sandbox games, mostly open world action or adventure games, so I'm not entirely sure how a sandbox element fits into an MMO structure, I'm interested to know what other games have implemented in this style.

[SendohJin]

If you don't like to do dungeon crawling, gearing up and raids, YOU DON'T LIKE MMOs.

this is wrong.

Hunts are none of those things.
PvP is none of those things.
Treasure Maps are none of those things.

those were new features added to the game that didn't exist at 2.0.

FATEs are FATEs
Leves are Leves
4 man dungeons are 4 man dungeons
8 man trials are 8 man trials

those have all been upgraded but 3.0 added no new systems like Hunts, Treasure Maps or Beastmen Dailies were added.

Flying is new but it's not a standalone feature, you fly to hunt mobs and you fly to gathering points, that's all. it doesn't even take much to make Flying itself a new feature if they implemented something simple like races. you can have a quest where people make laps and hit all the Aethercurrents, whichever player(s) get under a certain time will get a daily/weekly rewards.

that's a simple gameplay feature that's not a rehash of more FATEs, more Hunt mobs, more Expert Dungeons, more Trials.

---

FFXI constantly added new systems, not all of them worked and not all of them were good but they were new and different from each other.

Dynamis, Limbus, Beseiged, Nyzul Isle, Salvage, Campaign, Abyssea.

Chains of Promathia added new Dynamis zones to the existing one but it didn't stop them from adding Limbus which was a whole new feature.

Campaign and Beseiged though similar weren't the same.

reasonable people don't want radical redesign of existing systems. they want expansions to add new stuff they can put into their rotation of things to do.

[AlexionSkylark]

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Eve Online.

It was funny to notice how I always heard that Mining OPs were the coolest shit ever in EVE. People remembering them so fondly and all.
Then I got to know what mining ops were. Ppl just grinded mining asteroid fields (a task that needed 2 button clicks per asteroid), while another person did NOTHING but wait on a cargo freighter ship for the people to mine enough minerals to fill up his cargo bay, then go to a station and back. It was a COMPLETELY MINDLESS GRIND, MUCH MUCH MORE MINDLESS THAN RUNNING DUNGEONS OR ANYTHING ELSE IN FFXIV. The difference? people would do it while on TeamSpeak talking shit and chatting. It's no different than sitting around a table drinking and doing the same.

MMOs are about PEOPLE. It's spending good time with people that makes things fun. EVERY content can be fun, you just need to find the right people to do it with. And again,

if you don't enjoy the grind and the dungeon crawling, then you don't enjoy MMOs, period.

That was what Blizzard did wrong with WoW, by the way. They wanted to appeal to a playerbase who DID NOT LIKE MMOs, and tried to lure those people in by changing the game to be more palatable to those people. We don't need to stress out how that turned out...

[Bishop81]

Could you explain what it means to have a sandbox in an MMO? I've played sandbox games, mostly open world action or adventure games, so I'm not entirely sure how a sandbox element fits into an MMO structure, I'm interested to know what other games have implemented in this style.

Think of it as a playground with toys like rubber balls, nerf guns, ... etc. within a theme park like Disneyland with curated rides and attractions.

When you are tired of riding the Pirates of the Caribbean, you can go to the playground and play with the rest of the kids.

[Bishop81]

...

I think you are confusing the concept with the implementation details.

The idea is that players decide their own fate (within the sandbox) vs just being along for the ride (which is how most theme park MMOs work; they are guide theme park tours).

I'm not saying SE should stop doing the latter. Hell no. They are damn good at it with decades of experience - it's what people play FF for.

The problem comes when you run out of rides ... at which point a playground would be nice.

[Ladon]

FFXI constantly added new systems, not all of them worked and not all of them were good but they were new and different from each other.

Dynamis, Limbus, Beseiged, Nyzul Isle, Salvage, Campaign, Abyssea.

Chains of Promathia added new Dynamis zones to the existing one but it didn't stop them from adding Limbus which was a whole new feature.

The most important point in this thread. And no this isn't about trying to make FF14 FF11-2.

This is an example of designing new content beyond creating a boss with a different set of mechanics because right now that is all FF14 is doing. 2.0 was just a boss attack run and 3.0 is shaping up to be exactly the same.

-The 60 dungeons are EXACTLY the same as all the 50 dungeons but with a new coat of paint. You pull trash on a linear path, kill some bosses, get tokens.
-Hunts are still hunts. Nothing changed here except their models. How you find them and deal with them is the same as 2.0.
-FATES are still FATES, again nothing changed from them in 2.0.
-Alexander is really just a new phase of coil except turns are now called floors.

And from the sound of it, the floating island is just going to be Crystal Tower with a different tileset and another new set of bosses.

This is really just MMO treadmilling at it's worst. No new concepts were added to the game and nothing was changed on how players approach content in 3.0 compared to 2.0.

They really do need to take a page from FF11 here and actually add some significant new systems and ways for players to approach content. There is no reason Alexander should be playing out exactly like Coil did and it's completely disheartening to know that Alexander floors 5-8 and 9-12 are going to play out EXACTLY like the last 2 coils sets did.