Dark Knight, or Paladin?

[Giantbane]

you won't run into threat issues if all you do is 123 threat in shield oats

the difficult comes in when you're trying to use sword oath at all with competent DPS.

essentially it's like a double tax on Paladins - their threat combo deals considerably less damage than the other tanks, along with them having no insane snap aggro (dark arts power slash, berserk MAN MODE burst opening), meaning that in spite of royal athority being 340 potency plus sword oath potentially giving comparable DPS on paper, in practice paladins are forced to repeatedly perform far more subpar threat combos than the other tanks, which in turn does less damage than the threat combos of the other two.

As above, the DRK loses more damage by doing his threat combo than the PLD does when he uses RoH instead of RA. The RA combo also generates more threat than the DRK's siphon combos (including Darkside and the extra damage that siphon's mana drain will give you). Circle of scorn also has a threat modifier.

I fail to see how a PLD in Sword Oath is any worse off on threat generation than a DRK with Grit off.

[Seku]

As above, the DRK loses more damage by doing his threat combo than the PLD does when he uses RoH instead of RA. The RA combo also generates more threat than the DRK's siphon combos (including Darkside and the extra damage that siphon's mana drain will give you). Circle of scorn also has a threat modifier.

I fail to see how a PLD in Sword Oath is any worse off on threat generation than a DRK with Grit off.

Because a single DA + Power slash combo or w/e it is called will throw DRK far ahead in comparison to a PLD's RoH. So they only need to do it 1-3 times in comparison to PLD whom would have to continue to use RoH through out the entire fight.

[Freyyy]

snip

Your character looks so pissed off lmao

[Giantbane]

Because a single DA + Power slash combo or w/e it is called will throw DRK far ahead in comparison to a PLD's RoH. So they only need to do it 1-3 times in comparison to PLD whom would have to continue to use RoH through out the entire fight.

But the DRK loses so much more than the PLD doing a DA + Power slash combo. For a DRK, excess mana will be spent on DA + SE. The effect of this is to boost their siphon combo finisher from 280 (DL) to 400 (DA+SE). So 1 DA's worth of mana is worth about 120 potency.

By using the power slash combo, the DRK is not generating mana via siphon, which is 1/2 of a DA. So by using the PS combo, they're losing about 60 potency worth of damage. By buffing PS with DA, they're losing another 120 potency worth of damage. The PS combo is 650 total potency, while the DL potency is 680 total potency, another loss of 30 potency. So, by using DA + PS combo to secure threat, they are losing 210 (60+120+30) potency of damage that they would otherwise get if they were using their siphon combos. In addition, this is all under the effect of Darkside, so you have to multiply the effects by 115%, which means the loss is closer to 242 potency.

When a PLD does RoH instead of RA, he just loses 80 potency, or 88 potency if you include the average damage boost provided by FoF. This means that for every DA + PS combo the DRK does, they're losing a little less than 3x the potency of a PLD who uses RoH instead of RA.

If you're throwing out 3x RoH for every DRK's DA + Power slash combo, I think the PLD will come out ahead in terms of threat generated.

[Seku]

I choose you math

You're under estimating DRK's ability to regen MP in raid's. Being out of tank stance gives them blood weapon (basically makes every weapon skill a mini Siphion blade) and Carve and spit. MP is really a non issue. You'll use RoH more than 9 times in a fight as a pld, assuming SWO, unless you've got a ninja in there aiding you build enmity.

Do you guys really just ignore everything but dps here

When going for max efficiency, yes. I wouldn't suggest normal groups or the normal tanks to try to DPS stance their way through content, as it requires a good group, one you will more than likely not find in a Pug. But having a good group and people actually invested into their jobs allows tanks to turn themselves into DPS and burn down bosses extremely quick. It's actually why I'm not really sweating PLD's position right now, as for the average group (the ones that will make mistakes and not play perfectly) it's probably the best choice as one of the two tanks. As for the very tip top everyone playing like a robot, not so much.

[Faytte]

It's probably the best choice as one of the two tanks. As for the very tip top everyone playing like a robot, not so much.

It's kind of a clunky mess at the moment which is sad given how promising it looked at first. The move to magic and unblockable busters coupled with the terrible threat scaling and intense dps checks makes them undesirable. Add in their heal being both slow as hell and negating your ability to block or parry marks most of their tools pretty disappointing for main tanking.

I feel even for a bad or normal group your better off just brining war or dark. They deal with it current content better while speeding up the fight which, if your group is failing, will reduce the duration comedy of errors better than the few paladin tricks will offset larger mistakes (save for hallowed. All praise hallowed... The reason this class is still kind of relevant).

[nyttyn]

also power slash gets darkside damage bonus always and is 150/220/300 potency as opposed to paladin's 150/200/260 combo which only gets FoF bonus 33% of the time (and you have to sacrifice fitting in a second goring blade if you chose to open with it).

also circle of scron's aggro modifier combined with rage of halone (4400 + 900 = 5300) still can't match power slash dark arts + salted earth (6315 + 1207 = 7522 potency).

it's a pretty blatantly worse situation.

[Giantbane]

also power slash gets darkside damage bonus always and is 150/220/300 potency as opposed to paladin's 150/200/260 combo which only gets FoF bonus 33% of the time (and you have to sacrifice fitting in a second goring blade if you chose to open with it).

also circle of scron's aggro modifier combined with rage of halone (4400 + 900 = 5300) still can't match power slash dark arts + salted earth (6315 + 1207 = 7522 potency).

it's a pretty blatantly worse situation.

Sort of. You're only looking at that action alone and not the effects beyond that one combo. Sword Oath's extra potency keeps going while you're using RoH. DRK's mana regen goes negative while they're doing a PS combo, and it goes very heavily negative with DA + PS. For the DRK, this means losing out on damage from extra DA + SE later. For the PLD that does a RoH combo over a RA combo, they only lose the 80 potency up front. It doesn't cause any further loss of damage after the fact.

[nyttyn]

text

ok seeing as how according to both your statements and your lodestone profile you haven't played paladin @ sixty, you clearly don't realize the fatal flaw with your argument: it's pretty much impossible to hold aggro in sword oats without spamming rage of halone a plethora of times per encounter.

dark knight can get away with doing just one or two dark arts power slash combos for the entire fight (i've healed dark knights, i've seen them do it with monks and dragoons in the party), as a paladin main tank and one who's healed multiple paladins i can tell you for a fact that it's incredibly difficult to hold aggro in sword oats without using rage of halone at least 5 times in a boss fight, if not more depending on how competent the DPS in my party is.

and i'm in full str accessories with a i180 weapon and a bit of alex stuff. and I can't hold aggro against good i170 DPS without halone spam if im in sword oats.

[Giantbane]

it's incredibly difficult to hold aggro in sword oats without using rage of halone at least 5 times in a boss fight, if not more depending on how competent the DPS in my party is.

You don't have to play a PLD at 60 to know the potency of attacks.

I think you misunderstand my argument. What I'm saying is that if a PLD needs to do RoH 6 times and a DRK only needs to do DA + PS twice to hold agro outside of tank stance, then that's fair because they lose about the same amount of damage in both circumstances.