Every Tank should have dps/tank stance be off-GCD and not reset their combo

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Yes that's true, but if im out of MP I cant stance change either.

Then ask for the MP cost to be removed? What does that have to do with it being on or off GCD?

[karateorangutang]

Then ask for the MP cost to be removed? What does that have to do with it being on or off GCD?

It doesn't.... It relates completely to the point that WAR has to use, potentially, a resource after popping a stance.

[Arkard]

Devs make design decisions and changes for all sorts of reasons. This is a small change that some freaks (you) are trumping up to be some sort of massive balance swing. It's not.

Don't remember where I said this. In fact, I've argued quite the opposite. I've said that neither side has proof, nor can they provide proof that this change is either big or small.

Think you're taking this conversation a little too seriously, bud. Might be time for a break.

[Giantbane]

Then ask for the MP cost to be removed? What does that have to do with it being on or off GCD?

I think some people view the mana cost as the appropriate limiting factor to DRK/PLD stance dancing, while it being on GCD makes it feel clunky. The argument is that the mana cost is enough of a penalty and if it were changed, both of those classes would play better. So that, in the mind of some, makes it a positive change. Asking for positive changes to the game does not seem unreasonable, even if the reasons for the change aren't due to the high end raids that some 2% of the US player base even participates in before echo.

[Reynhart]

PLD can survive using 1 'on gcd' action
WAR only survives using 1 'off gcd' plus some other action.

WAR needs to be able to take another action get any benefit from the stance change.

Your situation is still unrealistic.
If I have 10k HP and I know something can hit for 8k, I'll pop a CD anyway.
Besides, it's also a proof ok skill to know when you can switch.

Oh, and WAR survives by using only 1GCD since he can Defiance during it's previous GCD and use Inner Beast..which will probably heal the WAR for whatever HP he's missing AND provides the same damage mitigation than Shield Oath.
So, in one GCD, both tank will reduce damage by the same amount, while having, at least roughly the same amount of HP.

If Shield Oath and Grit gain this strength as well, then where does that leave Defiance?

Being buffed with wrath/abandon stacks, allowing you to transfer wrath/abandon stacks, doesn't cost any ressource to change...

[Argyle_Darkheart]

I think some people view the mana cost as the appropriate limiting factor to DRK/PLD stance dancing, while it being on GCD makes it feel clunky. The argument is that the mana cost is enough of a penalty and if it were changed, both of those classes would play better. So that, in the mind of some, makes it a positive change. Asking for positive changes to the game does not seem unreasonable, even if the reasons for the change aren't due to the high end raids that some 2% of the US player base even participates in before echo.

Maybe, but the resource this thread seems to be holding in question is time, not MP.

[karateorangutang]

I think some people view the mana cost as the appropriate limiting factor to DRK/PLD stance dancing, while it being on GCD makes it feel clunky. The argument is that the mana cost is enough of a penalty and if it were changed, both of those classes would play better. So that, in the mind of some, makes it a positive change. Asking for positive changes to the game does not seem unreasonable, even if the reasons for the change aren't due to the high end raids that some 2% of the US player base even participates in before echo.

Thank you.

I don't think people realize how much it actually costs to switch stances on PLD. It's not something you could go bananas with and still have enough MP for Clemency and other abilities. Plus taking it off the GCD would give it an inherent risk/reward for the payment of it.

I'm not advocating they change this in patch 3.1, but I think it deserves some testing.

[winsock]

Ok, then make my stance change free. There now i dont lose resources either.

Paladin pays a fee to stance change... which im still ok with. Keep the mp cost there.

We could go back and forth all day 'if only i had a skill i could access every other gcd that restores TP', 'if only i could block and parry', 'if only my stance change didnt have a cd', 'if only my stun didnt have a cd' etc. blah blah blah.

WARs and PLDs are balance differently. In the context of stances being off and on gcd, do you at least see the point here? i.e. the PLD gains on the stance change, the WAR gains after the stance change. Both the PLD and the WAR make gains in a similar amount of time because defiance is off gcd and shield stance is on gcd.

[Giantbane]

Don't remember where I said this. In fact, I've argued quite the opposite. I've said that neither side has proof, nor can they provide proof that this change is either big or small.

Think you're taking this conversation a little too seriously, bud. Might be time for a break.

I call it a QoL change and you flipped out (it's hard not to read your initial response that way). I'm just baffled by the push back to this idea that looks like it's coming from people who don't primarily play the two classes effected. You play using the current PLD/DRK swap and it feels clunky. What's the problem of smoothing things out? It makes WARs feel less special?

2.x WAR stance dancing meant losing stacks and HP, PLD stance dancing meant losing combos, GCD and mana.

going to 3.0 WAR stance dancing no longer means losing stacks, but you still lose the hp. Is it completely unreasonable to ask that PLD/DRK swap gets rid of the GCD/Combo aspect if they keep the mana cost and get a cooldown between swaps? I'm having difficulty seeing the problem.

[Launched]

What's the problem of smoothing things out? It makes WARs feel less special?

That is EXACTLY it. You're trying to take away one of the advantages of WAR's tank stance, when it's already worse in several areas. So no, it doesn't need to be changed.